POLL: The shape of things to come

The 2016 South Afrifur Convention didn't happen.

What would you rather have?

Maintain status quo, just organize the get-together
7
33%
Prioritize getting more artists/trade into the fandom
5
24%
Open up the convention to more than just furs
8
38%
Other?
1
5%
 
Total votes: 21
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POLL: The shape of things to come

#1

Post by Tetsudra »

I'm curious what you all think about this. Referencing this thread, where I point out that South Afrifur would need to be a profitable convention in order to survive.

Ivic's argument is that all we really need to do is get all the current furs in one place, and it'll be a good enough experience that we can repeat it. I'm inclined to agree - looking at the way concerts/music events run, it's not uncommon for fans of a particular band to travel across the country to attend a 1-day event, and to do it every time the band is in the country (if they like the band enough, and have friends who do too).

But as much as I agree, I think we'd be better served in the long term if we grew the fandom itself, and let the convention (not just a one-time event) be a natural extension of it. I'd rather put focus on getting more people involved in the fandom, establishing a lot more trade (commissions, partials, fursuits, music, etc), and making it commercially viable to run a convention every year.

I look at it this way: If you pool all the money that you would have spent travelling to/hosting this get-together, and instead spent it on commissioning artists, you'd (hopefully) kickstart a small market. Student artists from all across the country would (probably) love the chance to earn extra income from their skills, and once the art itself is produced, it'll sell itself even further. People tend to come to the fandom for the art first, and the friendships second, after all.

After doing that for a while, then instead of talking 50/400 people that might attend, we may be talking about 250/5000 people that would definitely attend, and suddenly the experience is a lot more worthwhile.

So what do you think?
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#2

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Getting more people involved in the fandom is absolutely vital but I don't think we have to choose between that and having a South African convention.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#3

Post by Tetsudra »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Getting more people involved in the fandom is absolutely vital but I don't think we have to choose between that and having a South African convention.
Of course not - in my mind, one leads to the other. Eventually I want a local convention too, but in the short term, drumming up more interest would be the better long-term bet. You could even use the first convention to kick-start that, too.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#4

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

That was the goal.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#5

Post by Tetsudra »

Ivic-Wulfe wrote:That was the goal.
You literally stated the exact opposite in the other thread:
Ivic-Wulfe wrote:could have a venue and a plan to get together on a yearly basis to meet one another across the country

...

There is no economic market. Nothing feasible for a capitalist approach. Not enough people. Not enough interest and not enough money. But that was never the end goal. ... shoot it down for not being a huge fat money-making profit-con. But that isn't our goal.
:|
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#6

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

Tetsudra wrote:
Ivic-Wulfe wrote:That was the goal.
You literally stated the exact opposite in the other thread:
Ivic-Wulfe wrote:could have a venue and a plan to get together on a yearly basis to meet one another across the country

...

There is no economic market. Nothing feasible for a capitalist approach. Not enough people. Not enough interest and not enough money. But that was never the end goal. ... shoot it down for not being a huge fat money-making profit-con. But that isn't our goal.
:|
I stated my disagreement with turning it into a for profit organisation.

[EDIT] In essence, this was to show that we could actually pull off a 'convention-like' atmosphere. I would have liked to talk to you personally about your ideas before you went this far so that we could have found some form of middle ground to move towards.

Making it for profit stands against where we stand right now. Getting people together to show what could be done and actually maybe even having a meeting for the way forward at the convention itself would have been my course of action. Ensuring that we have an equal and interested party for the community. Opening it up to others also opens us up to any and all abuse. If we're already established at least with one or two meets under the belt then we'd be able to look at turning it into something viable like that.

Jy weerspreek jouself tot die grootste gedeelte van wat jy gese het voorheen wanneer ons eintlik gepraat het. I even agreed with starting with a smaller group and showing people that it could be done with furs from all over. "Spend money to make money" but solely for the community as a whole and making it cost effective to do it on a yearly basis. Once established and having a base community we could branch out to those goals of yours to help our own artists get recognition internationally and attract more international attention.

But that would be a future cause something to look at as an eventuality.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#7

Post by Raven Song »

Last year we held a camping trip. twas awesome. it was about 10 of us I think and didn't cost too much (though accommodation was kind of sorted out by an awesome fur). We had a braai, played fun games, got lost in the forest and attacked by evil spiders. it was awesome.
it worked well.
because it was simple.

now doing that over two days, with some actual planned events, with more than just ten of us, would be brilliant.

those that live close enough dont even need to camp/stay at the accommodation unless they want to. those who come from far will naturally need to sleep over but that being said we slept in caravans (Yukon totes set up his tent then didnt sleep in it) which was also actually very cool.

SO... the point to my ramblings:

while bringing in new furs is a "nice to have", there is a VERY negative view on our fandom throughout our slightly deluminated land at present. while i agree that we should not turn away non furs, i also think it may be a good idea for year one to be... us... the established... the here and now.
then, assuming it goes off well we should get more people.

I use an example of the Scout movement:

When the scouts held the first Jamboree way back when it was five scout troups, three land troups and two sea troups. it was held at arrow park in benoni. the sea troups took turns giving the land guys experiences on the water and the land guys helped the sea guys learn to build giant wooden structures. last year my sister attended her last Jamboree as a Sea Scout (she's a rover now) and they had roughly 40 troups from across Gauteng, in Springs. the troups from as far as Rustenburg joined in (and i think there was a potch troup too).

the point is it grew, because they didnt complicate things or try being like everyone else. they took something that worked, and molded it.

while an actual indoor convention would be awesome, it may not be profit making. but should that hinder us? the Jamboree doesnt make money... in fact it runs at a loss every year. so why do it? because it's an important way for the scout troups to connect.

and this convention may grow to become a thriving part of our furry world. but we wont know until we try.

So i think we should organise it like a giant furmeet, offer some events etc. for fun and games and those who WANT to make it will make the effort to be there.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#8

Post by Helios_phi »

Well, we have furs on whatsapp, furs on steam, furs on bbm, furs on Facebook, some furs on deviant art and furs on sofurry and a lot of them for one reason or another don't come to the forum.

How about if we just sent out an appeal for everyone on all platforms to log on to one place so you could gauge the actual intrest.
Let's be honest. These forums are inhabited by a handful of us and your not going to get answers to these questions when your only addressing 5% of the furry populace.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#9

Post by Raven Song »

Helios_phi wrote:Well, we have furs on whatsapp, furs on steam, furs on bbm, furs on Facebook, some furs on deviant art and furs on sofurry and a lot of them for one reason or another don't come to the forum.

How about if we just sent out an appeal for everyone on all platforms to log on to one place so you could gauge the actual intrest.
Let's be honest. These forums are inhabited by a handful of us and your not going to get answers to these questions when your only addressing 5% of the furry populace.

Why dont we have a like button!!!!
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#10

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

Ravensong wrote:
Helios_phi wrote:Well, we have furs on whatsapp, furs on steam, furs on bbm, furs on Facebook, some furs on deviant art and furs on sofurry and a lot of them for one reason or another don't come to the forum.

How about if we just sent out an appeal for everyone on all platforms to log on to one place so you could gauge the actual intrest.
Let's be honest. These forums are inhabited by a handful of us and your not going to get answers to these questions when your only addressing 5% of the furry populace.

Why dont we have a like button!!!!

This was the initial reason why we started something like the Podcast. Which has a Twitter, Facebook and Google+ page. Essentially most people do kind of keep their ear to the ground here. But I'm on it bringing the post to at least the Zafur Whatsapp group, Facebook group and our own facebook group right now. Last week was a bit hectic but we have been attempting to get more people to check it out.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#11

Post by Tetsudra »

@Ivic "Went this far"? I haven't gone anywhere, I'm just asking the questions. You're acting as if I've already somehow ruined everything just by making a couple of posts on the forum.

@Ivic/Ravensong I'm also not sure I understand your defensiveness, saying things like "SA has a dull view of furries". So what if they do? They have a dimmer view of alternative sexual lifestyles, doesn't stop Sexpo.

And even if it's an issue, it's not something we can't fix - it just takes a little PR. I'm willing to bet most people don't even know that furries exist as an interest category, and if their first impression is positive ("Furry convention raises R50k for wildlife sanctuary") as opposed to our relentless negativity ("Furry convention hotbed of underage sex") then we'd be off to the races.

@Ivic I'm not sure where "international attention" fits in to what I was saying earlier, frankly I'd settle for national attention. And I still don't understand why "for-profit organization" is so repugnant to you, as if making it commercially viable somehow sucks the soul out of what we're trying to do. Or that we'd somehow be "selling out the dream to make a quick buck", when the entire purpose of a profitable convention would be to have a bigger, better one every year. That's what you want, isn't it?

@Helios We should get this question to go a lot wider, you're right. I'll work on that.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#12

Post by DanLeo427 »

I feel for one the options given aren't representative to the topic at hand, and then to add to that, we are working on getting more artists and trade going, the convention i feel would be open to anyone who is curious about the furries and having the convention in the first place is the next big step in our growth as a community. there will be a large amount of dedicated furs attending and I'm also sure it wont be a one day event.

I read the other topic and i agree that it will take proper funding to keep this going year after year, but we don't need to get all the funds for the next convention in one go and this isn't a money making thing, we can have fundraisers throughout the year to get the basic funds to get this thing going. Also its to unite a community split up over a large area and because there are so few of us i really think that this is a very good thing and its something we all really need.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#13

Post by Raven Song »

Tetsudra wrote:And even if it's an issue, it's not something we can't fix - it just takes a little PR. I'm willing to bet most people don't even know that furries exist as an interest category, and if their first impression is positive ("Furry convention raises R50k for wildlife sanctuary") as opposed to our relentless negativity ("Furry convention hotbed of underage sex") then we'd be off to the races.
It's not a defensive stance, its simply a statement.

As far as the donating or doing something for charity or whatever my mother tried that to promote her ballet company. It actually doesn't work out the way you'd think. No one really notices. Also i doubt for our first year that we'd be able to gather enough funds to make a significant donation to anything. Any funds gathered in year one would be put away to help make year two more profitable.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#14

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

Tetsudra, it seems we're both missing the boat here. Essentially I'm not say it isn't your right to ask questions. I would have liked to speak to you personally about it so that we could have both had a clear idea as to where we're moving to. I'm not saying your idea is bad and nor are you saying mine is bad. I get that. What I was trying to get at is. We're moving too quickly to actually account for that to happen. If we can show that there is a safe haven to allow for the kind of growth you're talking about, something that can be fun. It can be done. However, for now, we would and should gauge the interest, see if it is financially viable as a "for-fur" group/convention/national get-together as we've spoken about on the podcast and move forward from there.

But it is a good idea to talk about it. I don't disagree with you. The goal is the same, but had we spoken about this I don't think this would have been the problem as it stands now.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#15

Post by Raven Song »

I'd like to point out that there has also been like three or so new furs who joined the forum in the past like week or so... while they don't post anything the point is people are looking, people are interested. we just have to be able to show that we're vibey and fun and want to do fun things. Not mumbling over silly details.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#16

Post by Helios_phi »

Tetsudra wrote:"Furry convention hotbed of underage sex"
Ravensong wrote: Why dont we have a like button!!!!


We don't have a like button cause it's more fun playing with the quote system. :lol:
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#17

Post by Tetsudra »

@Ivic I don't think we're "moving" anywhere, really. All we're doing is talking about this. Unless if you think I've already started registering for stuff, and applying for venues, and whatnot. I'd prefer to get the talking out of the way as quickly as possible, true - the faster we can get to the planning, the better planning we can do.

The difference here is that you want to see IF it's financially viable - I want to take steps to ENSURE it's financially viable. People attend conventions for the stupidest things, so it cannot be that hard to build a successful furry convention here.

And by "successful", I want it to be fun, engaging, warm, inviting, all those happy-fuzzy things you're after, as well as be financially viable so that we can do bigger ones every year. That way, everyone wins, even the people that don't know they're taking part yet.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#18

Post by Helios_phi »

@Tetsudra.
That's not really fair. Potato stock was fueled by the flames of potato salad kickstarter guy.
Apparently his potato salad was pretty tasty too. I would have attended that.
I like potatoes
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#19

Post by Raven Song »

@Tetsudra
Ivic has been planning and investigating this for months now, since last year. I have been witness to it. He is working hard to make sure that the steps put in place and the things being done not only mean that we all have a good time, but at the same time offer a little bit of security and safety for our fandom.

Trust me when I say he wants this just as much as anyone, but he's being sensible about it. Rome wasn't built in a day and if we want this thing to work it needs to be done carefully. otherwise it's going to be slapdash...
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#20

Post by DanLeo427 »

Just quickly putting this out there. If you take into consideration the age class of the majority of the furs as well as their yearly income as well as the amount of furs that will be joining, we can't bargain on making a substantial amount of money off of this. truth be told, most of us are under financial pressure and although we would be able to go, there is really no way that we can fork out a lot more money after that...
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#21

Post by Raven Song »

DanLeo427 wrote:Just quickly putting this out there. If you take into consideration the age class of the majority of the furs as well as their yearly income as well as the amount of furs that will be joining, we can't bargain on making a substantial amount of money off of this. truth be told, most of us are under financial pressure and although we would be able to go, there is really no way that we can fork out a lot more money after that...
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#22

Post by Tetsudra »

@Helios Doesn't mean that people won't spend money on something inherently silly :P

@DanLeo427 I think you (and possibly Ivic) are misinterpreting the profit motive. "Profitable" could be as simple as "We spent R50'000 organising the event and made R50'001 back in ticket sales". At the very least you want to break even on your investment, and ideally you want to make 6-7% in profit so that you have the funds to arrange the same thing again next year (accounting for annual inflation).

The motive is definitely NOT to "milk the local furs for cash", that's not it at all. I suppose people have that knee-jerk reaction whenever the word "profit" is mentioned though, so it's understandable.

@Ravensong I can accept that Ivic's been working on this for a while, but in fairness, so have a lot of other people, and it has generally ended in failure. And the plans that have ended in failure have usually gone like "Let's just find a venue and have everyone rock up and hope it sorts itself out". People are reluctant to commit any sort of money to a new venture where they're not sure of the returns.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#23

Post by DanLeo427 »

Oh no don't worry, i completely understand where you are coming from but my point is that at the amount going in, and lets just for example say its R50 000 to get everything up and going, the amount of people that will be attending (and im being reasonable from all the dedicated furs we have and im working on a standard number) is around 50-70 furs, 50 at a standard, 70 at a good out turn. we are talking at around R720- R1 000 ticket sales. Now obviously the tickets wont be the only source of income but it is the most important, and honestly i am not prepared to pay that amount and have to drive down that will cost me around another R1 000 and then i get to enjoy the con, but will be broke for food and stuff like that. even if we make the tickets at say R400 (which i will be prepared to pay) we will still be R30 000- R22 000 short. so there is all that to consider. So just working off 50K which is a reasonable estimate, you can see where im coming from. That's why id suggest fundraisers throughout the year leading up, and seeing as it will come from the attending or possible attending furs themselves, we already would have a even to profitable sum and so making the ticket prices a lot less and affordable, where we can put away the excess for the next year and then we will still have the raisers and have a little more every time. If the first one and the following Cons are a success of course.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#24

Post by Tetsudra »

@DanLeo427 The R50k was just a thumbsuck sample, and a very low sample at that. We'd need to consider venue options and get quotes from suppliers before we can work out minimum viable event cost, and then it gets into ticket sales territory.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#25

Post by DanLeo427 »

I know... That is what im saying. Numerous times... It's not gonna be cheap. And it needs to be afordable. Otherwise no one can make it and it'll be all for not.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#26

Post by Helios_phi »

Some furry friendly businesses might be willing to help with donations for advertising at the convention?
Pro life animal rescue
S.P.C.A
Just think if P.E.T.A. got involved. We could have giant signs saying "I'd rather wear fur than go naked"...... wait.... I think that's the wrong way.... nevermind.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#27

Post by DanLeo427 »

Ok well, as with a lot of topics this one is veering off course a bit. So let me just say this. I agree that we gotta expand the furry community here in SA, i really do, and honestly its expanding at quite the rate. I also agree with what you are saying, profit wise, sustainability wise and all that stuff...
But honestly I just wanna meet other furries in a place where i can be my crazy self, where i can growl and yap at furs, i wanna talk to furs about furry things and Hug random furs and stuffs... I want to do this in a public setting where i wont get weird looks from people nor be alienated by others. I guess what im trying to say is that i want a furry convention... not other people around... and i dont care how big or fancy it is, if i can have a braai in someone's back yard with 30-50 furs!!! OMG THAT WOULD BE EPIC!!!

And i know that the majority of furs would agree... we dont wanna build to a con for 5 years and then have it.. We want it now!! And i mean, the art and stuff is spreading, the fandom is growing and people are starting to notice, people that i know personally have liked furry art on facebook, posted it, used the term here and there, they know and its spreading.

i know financial backing is very necessary but we're working on it and we need a solid plan before we can start the process, so we need to talk about it and not just get the talking out of the way as quickly as possible.

And to all the furs who read this, you all know that we want your input, so dont be shy to just say "oh yeah i want a furry con" or " no this is a stupid idea" really, everyone is entitled to a say here and we REALLY wanna hear what everyone thinks.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#28

Post by Leeward »

Helios_phi wrote:Just think if P.E.T.A. got involved. We could have giant signs saying "I'd rather wear fur than go naked"...... wait.... I think that's the wrong way.... nevermind.
Actually, considering that most furries find the idea of wearing real (as in skinned from a real animal) fur repulsive (mostly for ethical reasons but also because it doesn't last as a material), I don't think PETA would have a problem with it. But then again, it is PETA.
DanLeo427 wrote:And to all the furs who read this, you all know that we want your input, so dont be shy to just say "oh yeah i want a furry con" or " no this is a stupid idea" really, everyone is entitled to a say here and we REALLY wanna hear what everyone thinks.
I was mildly excited when I heard that this might happen, but there's no way I'm going to make the trip to JHB just for that. If there were a mirror event in CPT I would be much more willing to consider it. Also I'm generally too poor to go to stuff like this. I know I'm just piling on the problems with cost involved, but unfortunately I don't have that kind of money to spare and I have other financial priorities. Maybe in a few years once I'm no longer a student, but right now this is not on my to-do list.

...Also now that I picture myself there I realise that I would probably just stand around awkwardly not talking to anyone. Crowds and stalls aren't my thing.
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#29

Post by DanLeo427 »

Leeward wrote:...Also now that I picture myself there I realise that I would probably just stand around awkwardly not talking to anyone. Crowds and stalls aren't my thing.
Hahahaha we're furs, we are the definition of awkward.
The world is slowly conforming to a new power and mode of communication. Memes. And Doge is king.
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Helios_phi
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Re: POLL: The shape of things to come

#30

Post by Helios_phi »

Leeward wrote: I don't think PETA would have a problem with it. But then again, it is PETA.
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