Spoilers

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Rakuen Growlithe
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Spoilers

#1

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

How about a discussion on spoiler culture? This comes from a Discord chat I had and some comments on Flayrah (https://www.flayrah.com/7317/review-ave ... ment-74007). It all started with talking about infinity war but lets discuss more generally. On spoilers in general, Crossaffliction had this to say.
I mean, Equestria Daily commenters annoyed the shit out of me when they kept complaining the site spoiled the episodes by listing the episode title, I mean Jesus fucking Christ, really?
Others just get upset if plot points are revealed or something. There are a bunch of unofficial conventions on when its okay to mention spoilers. Even on this forum, people wanted a spoiler function added. It's an interesting change in attitude since Crossaffliction also says that spoilers were really a marketing gimmick for Psycho and so didn't really exist until the 1960's.

Now I don't go looking for spoilers but I also don't go out of my way to avoid them, like staying away from sites and that sort of thing which I know some people do. It is nice to get surprised by the story but if you do hear a spoiler does that really ruin anything, as some claim? And if it does, how good is the thing really if just knowing what happens spoils it? You lose the surprise but that shouldn't be all there is to a movie. You should appreciate the way it is structured, the way it is executed, the things in the background. No one was complaining the Harry Potter movies were ruined because they had the read the book. If someone did that, we would rightly say that was absurd. So why would it be different for something else? The strangest part is when the same people who say spoilers will ruin something then go and watch it a second or third time! It just makes so little sense.
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Re: Spoilers

#2

Post by Contrast »

Spoilers don't just "ruin the surprise", they completely cripple a story's ability to elicit emotion from its audience. Take the death of a character for example. If you know beforehand exactly when a character is going to die, it robs all the preceding near-death scenes of their tension. Not only that, but the moment of death itself, when the audience should be overflowing with emotion such as sadness and hope, are drained of all gravitas.

The converse is also true. Why worry about a character if you know they're going to pull through and have a happy ending? Why feel anything at all?

The same principle can be applied to any event in fiction that's supposed to elicit some kind of feeling. Why root for a certain character in a love triangle if you already know who the heroine will choose? Why sit on the edge of your seat and peek through your fingers if you already know where all the jumpscares are? Why try to solve the murder in your head when you already know the butler's daughter did it? Why cry, why laugh, why scream, why do anything when a story has been reduced to a bunch of flashing images on a screen?

Spoilers don't just ruin a single moment. They ruin all moments.
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Re: Spoilers

#3

Post by Galahad »

I'll reveal my opinion on spoilers, but I'd like to issue a spoiler alert beforehand. And also an irony alert. And also a bad joke alert. Cool?

As a rule of thumb and as Rakuen rightly pointed out, it's usually good manners and common courtesy to avoid spoilers - at least for events that were recently released. A few weeks later, public discussion is usually open game. I agree with this convention. But I don't think it can be enforced in absolute terms anywhere.

Some places are more likely to have spoilers than others. Don't go to a Marvel discussion board if you want to avoid Infinity War spoilers. Or your membership will fade away faster than Spiderman at the end of the movie.
Also, people have different sensitivities. Some will shrug off a spoiler, and others will lodge a butter knife into your eyeball faster than you can say "Dumbledore dies." And of course, the magnitude of the spoiler itself can also vary. Luke becoming a jedi is not quite as much a revelation as Darth Vader being his first cousin's roommate. Obviously.

So, you can't quantify it. My best advice is this:
If you're sensitive, ask the person you're discussing it with to be mindful of spoilers. And avoid places you know there'll be spoilers. If you still come across one, well... Maybe hypnotic therapy will erase the memory. Or, you can toughen up and realize it's not the end of the world. Even if the spoiler had to do with the end of the world.
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Re: Spoilers

#4

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

See, I disagree with almost everything Contrast said there.
Contrast wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 2:40 pmSpoilers don't just "ruin the surprise", they completely cripple a story's ability to elicit emotion from its audience. Take the death of a character for example. If you know beforehand exactly when a character is going to die, it robs all the preceding near-death scenes of their tension. Not only that, but the moment of death itself, when the audience should be overflowing with emotion such as sadness and hope, are drained of all gravitas.
Now that's just not true. Knowing exactly when a character when a character dies is a bit extreme, more likely is knowing that a character dies and knowing that can heighten the emotion. Because then you know it will happen but you don't know when, every time there is danger you are wondering "is this going to be the moment?" Like when I watched The Last Jedi, I knew Carrie Fisher was dead so obviously Leia needs to be removed from the story. Every time something happened I was wondering, is this going to be it? Yes, there are some deaths that are maybe going to have less impact when you know beforehand but I would guess that is the majority because there's another line of evidence that speaks against your example.

The emotion in a scene does not just come from that scene, it comes from getting the audience to put themselves in the position of a character. It makes them experience what that character is feeling and that depends on what the person has experienced. If someone is watching a movie where a parent or lover dies and their parent or lover has died it will have a greater impact because of that. The emotional aspect of a story is just not completely self contained. Furthermore most people know of a movie that makes them cry, and not just the first time but every time. It doesn't lose the impact or emotion just because you know what happens, the impact comes from empathy with the character.
Contrast wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 2:40 pmThe same principle can be applied to any event in fiction that's supposed to elicit some kind of feeling. Why root for a certain character in a love triangle if you already know who the heroine will choose? Why sit on the edge of your seat and peek through your fingers if you already know where all the jumpscares are? Why try to solve the murder in your head when you already know the butler's daughter did it? Why cry, why laugh, why scream, why do anything when a story has been reduced to a bunch of flashing images on a screen?
Let's first say jumpscares are the lowest form of scare. It's a cheap, simple trick. If you know who someone ends up with in a love triangle then you will watch it in a different way. You won't care who it is but you will then wonder, how does the character get past this setback? What can they possibly do to change things? It's like the case of a bomb randomly going off in a cafe and when the audience knows a bomb is about to go off but the characters don't. It heightens drama. And yes, you won't try solve the murder but you will pay more attention. What clues were there? What are the heroes missing?
Contrast wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 2:40 pmSpoilers don't just ruin a single moment. They ruin all moments.
A spoiler can't stop you crying, laughing, screaming and all because we know movies and books continue to elicit those responses even after the ultimate spoiler, having watched or read them before!
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
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Re: Spoilers

#5

Post by Contrast »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 3:09 pmSee, I disagree with almost everything Contrast said there.
And I disagree with almost everything you've said.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 3:09 pm Knowing exactly when a character when a character dies is a bit extreme, more likely is knowing that a character dies and knowing that can heighten the emotion.
Excuse me? I must be misinterpreting this, because it almost sounds like you're defending spoilers, or saying that they can make a story better.
Like Galahad said, everyone reacts to spoilers differently, so I can't speak for everyone when I say this, but I know that if someone spoiled a movie or a book I was looking forward to by revealing a character's death, I wouldn't go, "Oh, yippee! Now I get to try and guess exactly when that will happen." No. I would be very annoyed (as I am sure most people would be). My emotion for the movie most certainly wouldn't be "heightened". It would be lowered. Knowing such a major event would only prevent me from forming any kind of emotional attachment to that character.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 3:09 pmThe emotion in a scene does not just come from that scene, it comes from getting the audience to put themselves in the position of a character. It makes them experience what that character is feeling and that depends on what the person has experienced. If someone is watching a movie where a parent or lover dies and their parent or lover has died it will have a greater impact because of that. The emotional aspect of a story is just not completely self contained.
I agree that empathy for a character is incredibly important for a story, and that empathy can only be achieved when the audience sees themselves within a certain character or situation, something they're familiar with or have experienced for themselves. But why should I (or anyone) feel empathy towards a character or a situation when I just don't care. That's the crux of what I'm getting at. Spoilers make it so that I cannot feel empathy towards a story. It makes it impossible for me to care about the characters or what they're going through or what's going to happen to them. How can I put myself in the position of a character when I know beforehand what's going to happen to them? Spoilers forcibly eject me from the character I'm trying to empathize with and the world the author is trying to create for me.

If the character hopes they're going to win the war, then I want to be able to hope along with him.
If the character despairs at the loss of his loved ones, then I want to be able to feel despair alongside him.
If the character tries his absolute best despite overwhelming odds, then I want to be able to cheer for him. It's because he doesn't know if he will succeed, or if he even can succeed, that puts us both in the same boat, because I don't know either.

Spoilers take away my ability to feel empathy for the characters, and that takes away my ability to feel the emotion a story so desperately needs to ring true in my mind and my heart. It makes everything hollow and meaningless.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 3:09 pmA spoiler can't stop you crying, laughing, screaming and all because we know movies and books continue to elicit those responses even after the ultimate spoiler, having watched or read them before!
It most certainly can, and I am no stranger to crying at things I've read and watched before. I cry every time I watch FMA: Brotherhood (you know the scenes I mean). I cry every time I watch Made In Abyss. I cry every time I watch Steins;Gate. It's because of two things. 1: Lasting empathy for the characters, and 2: recapturing the magic of the empathy and emotion I felt during the first viewing.

But what if those stories had been spoiled for me? Would I have been able to feel the same emotions watching through them the first time? Would I have been able to empathize with the characters in the same way? No. I would not. And that would mean that any subsequent viewings wouldn't have had the same impact either. In fact, if those stories had been spoiled to me beforehand, I think there's a very good chance I would never have watched them a second time at all, or even finished my fist viewing. Spoilers can have far-reaching consequences when it comes to the enjoyment of a story.

As you can no-doubt tell, I loathe spoilers with a passion. Maybe it's because I love stories with an equal amount of passion. I watch stories, read stories, and when the right ones come along, I even live those stories. I have spent years writing stories of my own, so I know how incredibly difficult it is to create an entire world out of scratch, and then populate it with make-believe people. I know how it's nearly impossible for them to reach out of the page and touch the hearts of real people who have taken time out of their real lives to read what I have written. But sometimes it happens, and when it does, it's the best feeling in the whole world. It's magic.

And that is why I hate spoilers so much. They take all that magic and just... spoil it.
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Re: Spoilers

#6

Post by Animew »

UwU/ yea no firedog good try but trying to debate pro spoilers is like trying to debate pro nazzi or pro child porn.

not only do you wreck a persons experience of the story, you also stigmatize it for the person for the rest of their mortal lives... when you think of that story or movie you will always think "was nice, just wish that ASSHOLE didn't spoil it for me"

<w< its called spoilers for a reason Owo as i'm moderately sure someone has to have pointed out by now (but i'm too lazy to read it all to check.)
mess with the order in which events unfold and you effectively change the story <w< a guy working with genetics should know better than to mess with the order of things willy nilly.
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Re: Spoilers

#7

Post by Contrast »

Animew wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 7:08 pmnot only do you wreck a persons experience of the story, you also stigmatize it for the person for the rest of their mortal lives... when you think of that story or movie you will always think "was nice, just wish that ASSHOLE didn't spoil it for me"
So true. I'm still pissed off at one of my friends for spoiling a critical plot point in Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos, and that happened back in 2005. To this day I can't play through that game without thinking, "This would have been such an amazing moment, if only that ASSHOLE hadn't blurted the whole thing out." -_-
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Re: Spoilers

#8

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Animew wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 7:08 pm<w< its called spoilers for a reason Owo as i'm moderately sure someone has to have pointed out by now (but i'm too lazy to read it all to check.)
Does raise an interesting question about whether the negative connotations of the word "spoiler" colour our perception of it. Spoiler does suggest it spoils things. Would we have the same reaction if instead of spoilers we called them "titbits"? e.g. I just heard the juiciest titbit about Infinity War and now I just can't wait to see it!

In any case, trailers can give away plenty of important bits of information. You actually see people who are excited for something spending ages analysing trailers for any hints of what is coming.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
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Re: Spoilers

#9

Post by Leeward »

I guess it depends on your preferences. My mother for example is the type of person who will get half-way through a book, then read the last page, and go back to where she was and finish it. I simply don't understand why you would do that, it takes away all the suspense knowing everything is going to be all right or that some character survives until the end. I want to be surprised, shocked, and moved by a story. If you already know what's going to happen, that defeats the purpose.
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Re: Spoilers

#10

Post by Galahad »

If you go to a fortune teller with her crystal ball, should she be obligated to say "spoiler alert" before each telling? Now there's a question for you. :P

I am with Contrast on this one, although perhaps not as fervent about the issue as he is.
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Re: Spoilers

#11

Post by Leeward »

Spoiler alert: YOU WILL DIE
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Re: Spoilers

#12

Post by Galahad »

Bloody hell, Lee! You are not supposed to put the spoiler right next to the spoiler alert! Now you absolutely ruined the ending of my life story for me. >_>

On a serious note, I am pretty sure character deaths are the highest (or one of the highest) tier of spoiler you can get. :P
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Re: Spoilers

#13

Post by Animew »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 7:43 am Does raise an interesting question about whether the negative connotations of the word "spoiler" colour our perception of it. Spoiler does suggest it spoils things. Would we have the same reaction if instead of spoilers we called them "titbits"? e.g. I just heard the juiciest titbit about Infinity War and now I just can't wait to see it!
UwU/ because tidbit is a completely different word. a tidbit is like the name implies... just a BIT and lets face it in trailers they deliberately mix it up to mislead people and not give away the plot.
=w= and spoilers... well, that's just people wanting to sound informed because they feel intellectually insecure so they hark off as much as they can about the events in the story.

the name is just an accurate description of what it does... it spoils things... even if it was called something super PC like "early plot revelation" it would still be bad because of what it does, not because of what it sounds like.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 7:43 am You actually see people who are excited for something spending ages analysing trailers for any hints of what is coming.
UwU/ you also see people having sex with vacuum cleaners but do you see any brands of vacuum cleaners coming out with special attachments for sex? Owo then again you probably do but still that doesn't make it more acceptable.
Leeward wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 10:15 am My mother for example is the type of person who will get half-way through a book, then read the last page, and go back to where she was and finish it.
\UwU/ some people have no patience. <w< tiz the instant gratification generation i say! its infecting old people now too apparently.
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Re: Spoilers

#14

Post by Leeward »

Animew wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 pm
Leeward wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 10:15 am My mother for example is the type of person who will get half-way through a book, then read the last page, and go back to where she was and finish it.
\UwU/ some people have no patience. <w< tiz the instant gratification generation i say! its infecting old people now too apparently.
Nope it's just her, she's always been an impatient and intrusively curious control freak.
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Re: Spoilers

#15

Post by Animew »

Leeward wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 12:36 pmcontrol freak.
oh the irony, at first i typed a lengthy thing about how people that feel they need to know stuff beforehand have control issues and surprises makes them uncomfortable. but i substituted it for a simpler patience explanation so i don't come across as insulting your mom.
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