Toxicity -'System of a Down blaring in the background'- and other idiocracies

[CyntheWightRabbit]

I've caught up on the gist of everything... I guess. And there are two things I really want clarification for, because I must have missed the boat or something.

Firstly.
What exactly about this forum is *quoteunquote* toxic?

I mean, when I think of toxic environments, I picture abusive relationships. Areas where poverty is high. Where violence, drug abuse, 'gangsterism' is high and you're basically forced to live in fear or become a part of the problem.

...too far from your 'first world problem life'? How about the entirety of the Black Lives Matter movement or the face of the SJW's? You know where you're only allowed to think one way and if you think or say something that goes against them you're wrong and a traitor and yadayada.

If we go to specific fandoms what about the recent Star Wars movie and how totally out of control that fandom got just because what they wanted wasn't what they got. I'd even bring in the Tokyo Ghoul fandom and the fact that they literally asked the creator to kill himself just because their ship was sunk canonically. I'm not even joking.

That is what I think of as toxic. This little group where everyone can be open with who they are and what they like is... completely healthy.
So what the flipping frak if someone doesn't like you and is willing to say so. What? You would rather have a place where that person would be forced to like you rather than to know the truth? Because we all know being in an environment/situation where you're forced to behave and act a certain way against your own beliefs and opinions just so that you won't get ostracized by your friends and peers is totally NOT toxic in and of itself.


The second thing is a bit a doozy.
But... do you guys really believe this so called 'toxicity' *coughcough* is the reason why this place isn't active??

Lol. Because if you do then wow. You're hella wrong. I can literally tell you now why this place isn't active. And it has nothing to do with anyone specific person chasing people away or the fact that this forum has a bad reputation??? Even though I have yet to see evidence for such a notion... (Ohmygod the forum is Taylor Swift confirmed.)

Here's the lowdown. The real reason this forum isn't as active as you might want it to be... is because there isn't an incentive to be active here. There is nothing that grips people and makes people want to go out of their way to stay here. Sure. This is the first place they'll see when they look up SA furries but after that and meeting a few, they'll literally just take their contact info and use more convenient methods of communication. Literally the admins were programmed to spam "Heya. You heard of telegram?" which is literally one of the first things you'd have heard upon joining. Why use this crummy site to talk to people when you can use an instant messaging service???

Unfortunately, this place doesn't have the advantage a lot of other 'fandoms' have. And that is a movie/book/series/game that is still active and ongoing. That allows for a constant source of material that would bring others to the forum to speak about said new information. Here literally the only thing 'non-drama-related' that gets posted are on the "What are you doing now/Listening to now/Watching now/etc" threads which to be honest is about as appealing as those Facebook posts of that one person in school that you became acquaintances with just to boost your 'Friends' number.

It's a sad truth but no-one is really interested in anything that doesn't concern them. (Which is why the most activity you see on the site is when so called drama hits like a mothatrucking train.) Other times it's about as active as an extinct volcano.

You, admins I'm talking to you in particular, expect people to entertain themselves here, which is fine. That's your prerogative. And a lot of the times those that try to be active here do try. But when there posts literally get no responses because lets face it. No-one is interested in finding out what edgy music they're listening today. (At least on Facebook they can get likes to make them not feel completely ignored). Of course they're not going to be inclined to post again. And unlike a lot of the people who are relatively active here, they don't have the friendbase already formed here to keep them from going 'fuck it.'

And literally as I was writing this I came up with a few ideas that could potentially keep people coming back. (Of course it'll require work from you lot so who am I kidding, it aint gonna happen but eh.)

-That furry newsletter/article/whateverthefuck that is. Why don't you make it more interactive? Sure. You'll still have your specific writers doing their thing to make them feel special, but why not allow for members on the forum to give input on specific ideas/etc. Of course the final say will rest with you, but by having an active platform where people might be inclined to be a part of, it'll make people want to check in more often.

-Literally have competitions. (Oh no. No-one will pay for prizes etc. Gosh.) I don't really know how you'll do the prize thing, but why not hold monthly competitions? An Art competition one month, a short story one the next/poetry wtf ever. And have members of the forum vote at the end for their favourite and the one with the most votes wins. Or something similar. Again. By having something that will get people invested in the forum, it'll allow for more traffic. You could even have a general knowledge event at some point.

-A lot of the people on here are gamers so why not organize monthly events where you play your games like Call of Duty (is that even still a thing anymore??) and Overwatch and Minecraft or whatever. YES I KNOW THAT THERE ARE NICHE DISCORD SERVERS FOR YOUR FRIENDS THAT YOU USE TO PLAY GAMES TOGETHER but this is much more accessible to the layman and will allow people that aren't necessarily your friend to become accustomed to you and get to know you better. You can even hold competitions with eachother etc. And if it is a monthly thing. People will consistently come in the check out whats happening next month to see if they're going to be a part of it.

-None of that suit you? Why not make a section of the forum dedicated to other aspects of the fandom from across the world. Literally make articles about drama inside the fandom that has nothing to do with us and then we get to make fun of them instead of bitching about our own 'toxicity' that doesn't actually exist. Or even just have articles about events that have gone down overseas. Or even have posts that spotlight specific new artists/writers/fursuit creators/talent that was found inside the fandom. By doing so, it'll create a steady stream of information people would want to take note of, that will draw them back here regularly.

And this is literally just to name a few that I got off the top of my head. There are many ways you can go about it.
Or well not. I doubt anyone's actually going to do anything. (IMB4 WHY DON'T YOU DO THIS YOURSEL-shot)

I got a little off tangent there but the point is. There's no use blaming others for the forums innate problems. It's just... very uninteresting in general. There's no benefit, for the most part to be active here. Try to fix that and then we might see an improvement.

[Trace]

While I have some issue with your some of your tone, I do have to say that you have some valid points.
As one of the members of the Furry Times newsletter team, I would be really happy to see people say what they wanted to see in future issues.
We haven't done so yet because we've been working on pulling the project back out of the ground with the upcoming issue, and quite honestly I don't think we had thought that far ahead.
I appreciate the suggestion. I've talked to ArtyLoop about it, and we will probably be making a thread where furs can do exactly that soon.

[Splicer-Fox]

Some of us were fine with the level drama, until you new furs came along and ruined everything.

[Leeward]

I may sound like a hypocrite here but I agree with you, Cyn.

[Ryall]

Cyn, I dislike you and dislike your writing style, but I agree with the points you made here. I don't really have the time or the will to be a part of making ZAFur a better place right now based on the suggestions you made, but I hope other people will strongly consider them and think further on the matter. There are many ways in which the forum could be turned into a hub of activity. All it will take is some time; enthusiasm; and a little thought.

[YoteFox]

I actually agree with you. The fact I don't return usually is because there is not much of an incentive to post here anymore. Idk I find telegram drama more exciting to be quite frank. This isn't a bashing on the admins at all it's just my opinion.

I think Cyn is really onto something, this place needs a main attraction. The cost vs benefit of posting on the forums as of late hasn't been quite rewarding as it used to be and using other mediums such as telegram has provided with a more satisfying result.

I've actually been thinking of doing the entire outside fandom drama thing for YouTube videos but I'm so afraid it might spark drama, you literally never know with furries xD

We want excitement, hype, engagement, outreach, cool things, forum stickers, merch. Right now the ZaFur "brand" is in a pretty purgatorial space imho.
I understand the differences between a forum and a IM platform but we still have to be realistic about the fact that people would much rather use an IM than the forum because it's simply more engaging and as I mentioned before that it's the effort of going onto the forum, logging in, searching for threads, reading an ENTIRE thread before you post, then HOPEFULLY getting a decent response or any response for that matter on your reply whereas IM is literally pick up your phone, open the app then join in at any stage of a conversation and type away!

NO people aren't being simply lazy and coining it as that makes you a hypocrit because you'd be too lazy to want to understand why, which is the Cost vs Benefit principle.

Like with a modern day business the forum needs something that makes it unique, what makes this forum unique from any other forum currently?
South African furries you might say? But is that enough of a unique aspect to it to say that is what drives the forum? Not really.
If you make it worth people's time to log on I think the forum would see way more activity.

Just my 2c

[Galahad]

I would like to see one of the admins' thoughts on this, and whether such suggestions are being considered.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

I understand the differences between a forum and a IM platform but we still have to be realistic about the fact that people would much rather use an IM than the forum because it's simply more engaging and as I mentioned before that it's the effort of going onto the forum, logging in, searching for threads, reading an ENTIRE thread before you post, then HOPEFULLY getting a decent response or any response for that matter on your reply whereas IM is literally pick up your phone, open the app then join in at any stage of a conversation and type away!

Most people would rather use an IM platform for most of their discussion. You can't really compete with that. The other issue is that those platforms are designed to make people want to use them more and more. (See here and here) Forums are not designed that way (thankfully). The benefits of a forum is that it enables longer term, in-depth discussions as well as keeping a record of all that. The nature of IMs is that they are quick and transient. You can't search back in a group Telegram and easily find a discussion on a certain topic, you can't have a new person continue a discussion a week or two later and you can't easily have three topics discussed at once in an IM chat. All of that is possible on a forum.

You could, in theory, treat a forum like an IM conversation and not read the entire thread but if you do that then the likelihood of making a constructive contribution goes down. The same will happen in an IM if you join in without reading what was already discussed. No one likes a conversation where a new person joins and then everyone has to repeat the last five minutes. I think you are making a forum sound a lot more complicated to use than it is; it's just more structured. If you choose to remain logged then you can spend weeks or months without having to log in again.

I would like to see one of the admins' thoughts on this, and whether such suggestions are being considered.

Personally, it seems a lot like people want things just done for them. Along with that is some idea that the forum staff have to do everything. Most of those suggestions can be done by users, so the question is really, if people want that done then why don't they do it? Look at the things Cyn suggested.

Furry newsletter: I assume he means Furry Times. That's not part of the forum but as far as I know, what he suggests is already true. If you want to get involved with it you can. All you have to do is talk to Artyloop.

Competitions: Those can be fun but I doubt there are enough active writers/artists to make them that regular. It could be done for some special occasions, I suppose we could try an Easter art competition just for fun. Again, anyone can start such a competition at any time if they want to.

Gaming: If you're not playing a specific game then its not so easy to organise anything for that game. From what I understand there are furs that organise Overwatch games from the ZA Furry Gamers Discord. There were Minecraft players who used to run a Mincecraft server for South African furs. People just need to say they are looking for people to play a specific game.

Aspects of furry from across the world: That exists, it's the "Furry Chat" part of the forum.

[Leeward]

Personally, it seems a lot like people want things just done for them. Along with that is some idea that the forum staff have to do everything. Most of those suggestions can be done by users, so the question is really, if people want that done then why don't they do it?

Because that's literally what you signed up for. Part of leading a community is engaging it and keeping people invested in remaining part of the group. What good is a leader who just tells people to lead themselves?

[Rakuen Growlithe]

But we aren't talking about the whole community, we talking about the forum. The responsibility there is in making sure that the forum is up and running and dealing with problems that occur on the forum. The forum is then provided as a space for the community to use. That does not mean that forum staff need to start every discussion or initiative.

[Leeward]

Yeah you're right they don't need to, but they definitely should if they want to forum to be more successful. Minimum effort "that's not in my job description" attitude gets you nowhere, in fact in a real job that could get you fired (pun and reference totally intended).

[Rakuen Growlithe]

That's probably a case you could take to a labour court then. If you're fired for doing the job you are employed and paid for but not also the job you are not employed or paid for then that sounds like a problem with the boss. Contracts exist for a reason; they set out what the expectations of the worker is and what the remuneration for that work is. While exceptions may need to be made if you are constantly being asked to do more than in in your contract then you should renegotiate your contract or you are being exploited.

[Leeward]

Way to miss the point. Work contracts usually include a "and other duties" clause, which means that your boss can ask you to do things not explicitly specified in your contract but related to what you do, within reason. A knee-jerk "not my job" reaction just shows unwillingness to go the extra mile and a deliberately uncooperative attitude. That's not exactly how you get Employee of the Month now, is it?

[ArtyLoop]

But we aren't talking about the whole community, we talking about the forum. The responsibility there is in making sure that the forum is up and running and dealing with problems that occur on the forum. The forum is then provided as a space for the community to use. That does not mean that forum staff need to start every discussion or initiative.

Dear Rakuen

We are talking about the forum, which whether we like it or not, is symbolic of the local fandom. Unfortunately I wasn't here in the early days to know the full story. Needless to say that is how it is.. talk about furries in South Africa, and ZAfur comes up every time amongst those older than a certain age.

Unfortunately your responsibility aside from what you mentioned, is also to make the place useful, appoint helpful people that can get things done and to LISTEN to the needs/desires of the community you indirectly serve. There are perceptions here that chill speech, and make people leave. I have even heard "the design of the forum sucks"... not my words. I really cannot stress enough that you should spend a week in the Telegram groups and/or social media component of this community and hear, observe, and see how people really feel.

Other forums keep the membership/readership engaged. They post competitions, they do interesting things. I for one, only have one small role to play I cannot possibly engage an entire forum for 5 days a week. There are folks that can do that, and have the time to do so, but, I am saying this with utmost respect- this place just looks like someone's little empire. Nobody has the balls to colour outside the lines because of how dissent is handled, and the stern speeches you dish out to people. Not all of us have the gift of the gab, me included, and its perhaps time to realise and accept that.

The toxicity on this forum is determined to be primarily of one origin:
The staff versus the users

That in itself is alarming. It means you're alienating the very people you want to engage with.

BUT, I want to ask another question if I may.

What exactly is your true desire with the forum? Do you have goals, targets, or maybe a plan? If we could know that, that would help a LOT.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

I have been thinking a bit about the goals for the forum. At the current stage, I would probably say it has three. It serves as an easily findable starting point for South African furs, serves as an area that is open to all rather than invitation only and archives the history of the South African furry community.

The toxicity on this forum is determined to be primarily of one origin:
The staff versus the users

Mostly 3-4 users versus the staff. The drama that occurred before those users was of a very different nature.

[Leeward]

Sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll! \m/,

[Cape_F0X]

I thought CSI said the only motives were sex, drugs and money.

[Valerion]

What exactly is your true desire with the forum? Do you have goals, targets, or maybe a plan? If we could know that, that would help a LOT.

This wasn't directed at me. But it is my responsibility to answer.

• To give newcomers a place to start exploring the fandom
• To act as a safe-ish area for people who are unsure about their place in life and the fandom
• To be welcoming to new members
• To bring the members of the fandom closer together, so we can arrange events like meets, cons, etc, and grow the fandom in the country
• To give support to furs where needed
• Where you can discuss almost anything that comes to mind, and hopefully find a receptive audience. (There are restrictions, mostly legal)

What we do NOT want:
Flamewars. Hence the moderators have learned early on to nip any real starting flamewar in the bud. This makes everyone's life easier, but it gives the moderators a reputation for being authoritarian, because "My viewpoint was never allowed to be put forward" or "I didn't get a chance to reply" or "I am not causing drama". Not much that can be done about that in a fandom as prone to drama as this one.

Hence things like:
Community Projects - where we advertise efforts by other members and groups for free
The defunct CR initiative
The Venting Forum

[YoteFox]

Rakuen you are missing my entire point I'm trying to make. The forum is in need of innovation to keep it alive spear headed by proper leaders. Maybe making claims of the forum dying is a bit over the top but is sure as hell hasn't picked up much to any more activity than it did when I first joined back in 2014 as a matter of fact nothing much than the theme really changed since then oh and the greeting screen where you are greeted with the option to either go onto the forums or IRC. I don't know of many people still using IRC though

I've never once said that I want the forum to be a carbon copy of a IM platform.

IM platforms are taking preference over forums whether you like it or not, specifically over this forum. There needs to be innovation to move this forum into a direction, there is an astounding lack of innovation because innovative ideas like the ones Cyn brought forward be it in a really unpleasant tone are being shot down and this thread could have been a great brainstorming thread with people contributing how certain ideas could probably flow into fun and exciting things and maybe even some ideas that we would never have thought about. But now with the anger and dissent portrayed in this thread it could possibly deter someone from posting a really great idea here.

Personally, it seems a lot like people want things just done for them. Along with that is some idea that the forum staff have to do everything. Most of those suggestions can be done by users, so the question is really, if people want that done then why don't they do it? Look at the things Cyn suggested.

I get the feeling of this too yes, it surely isn't the admin's duties to do such things but what about the admins incentivising the community to actually do such things for themselves. The staff doesn't HAVE to do everything. Merely poke at creativity per say and if that doesn't yield positive results then well the admins aren't too blame since you actually put in that effort.

COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT
Do something stupid like featured artist of the week, congrats to this poster for doing this thing or something along those lines. I mean all it takes is a little innovation and just showing care about the users against all odds.

With Gaming do like a furry game of the week, or something exciting the possibilities are endless. You can even have like a section where you can put up live streaming for ZaFurs possibly? Open it up to any member who'd like to live stream their game they are playing.

Could we likely tone this down and try to be more constructive please instead of everyone just flailing up in arms

[Leeward]

Forums are still widely "a thing" on the internet despite IM. IRC has been around for 30 odd years and it hasn't killed forums. It's just this one that has a problem.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

There needs to be innovation to move this forum into a direction, there is an astounding lack of innovation because innovative ideas like the ones Cyn brought forward be it in a really unpleasant tone are being shot down and this thread could have been a great brainstorming thread with people contributing how certain ideas could probably flow into fun and exciting things and maybe even some ideas that we would never have thought about.

I am not in disagreement about all these things and, despite what some people say, I am not opposed to all changes. I am happy to support new ideas but it is difficult to get much enthusiasm for supporting ideas which are couched in attacks. There's also clearly a difference of opinion because you say here that Cyn's ideas were shot down. I commented on them only after Galahad asked for an admin's opinion and my view of is quite different from yours. As I see it, half of his ideas were already in place, I have now started one of them after no one else took the initiative and the last one is just done on perhaps a smaller scale and not specifically on the forum itself although the area exists for it.

[Galahad]

To be fair, I do appreciate Rakuen taking the initiative to get the ball rolling with the Easter art competition. It shows that he does not resist all change. Valerion wanting to publicize the site Discord server is another proactive move.

On the other hand, there is room for more proactivity and innovation - from all sides. In general, we have the talent, but not the will. There is a vast amount of untapped potential.

For example, what about a site banner or a site mascot - or maybe even host a competition to design one?

I feel both the staff and the members can work together to come up with and implement these ideas.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

On the other hand, there is room for more proactivity and innovation - from all sides. In general, we have the talent, but not the will. There is a vast amount of untapped potential.

For example, what about a site banner or a site mascot - or maybe even host a competition to design one?

If people don't have the will to start something, will they follow through? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

There were two attempts to get a mascot. Once in 2009 and once in 2011. I even suggested making a mascot creation competition back then. While I don't think anyone was ever against a mascot, the discussion never lead anywhere. That said, there were a number of interesting suggestions.

[Galahad]

Well, that anecdote is roughly 7 years old. It might be worth it to give it another try.

[YoteFox]

There needs to be innovation to move this forum into a direction, there is an astounding lack of innovation because innovative ideas like the ones Cyn brought forward be it in a really unpleasant tone are being shot down and this thread could have been a great brainstorming thread with people contributing how certain ideas could probably flow into fun and exciting things and maybe even some ideas that we would never have thought about.

I am not in disagreement about all these things and, despite what some people say, I am not opposed to all changes. I am happy to support new ideas but it is difficult to get much enthusiasm for supporting ideas which are couched in attacks. There's also clearly a difference of opinion because you say here that Cyn's ideas were shot down. I commented on them only after Galahad asked for an admin's opinion and my view of is quite different from yours. As I see it, half of his ideas were already in place, I have now started one of them after no one else took the initiative and the last one is just done on perhaps a smaller scale and not specifically on the forum itself although the area exists for it.

I understand what you are saying that gathering the will power and enthusiasm to do something suggested in a aggressive manner proves difficult since it feels forced onto one. I get that. I really do.

I actually think a Mascot could be a great idea, we can even launch a survey and spread it across various ZaFur platforms to gauge interest