Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

Any discussion not related to furry goes in here. Politics, religion, current affairs...this is the place for it.
User avatar
Galahad
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:31 pm
Gender: Male
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria

Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#1

Post by Galahad »

I guess an alternative title for this thread can also be "talent or hard work?", but that could be a false dichotomy. :P

So, perhaps you are browsing through the gallery of your favourite artist - whether it be on DeviantArt, FurAffinity, SoFurry or... a less modest site (we don't judge here ;) ) - and perhaps you remark to yourself "I wish I were this talented!" Extraordinary success and performance is often attributed to 'talent'. The magnificent dancer whose body may as well be made of living rubber. The prolific writer whose works keep you fixed to the pages. The charismatic orator whose speeches turn even the coldest of hearts receptive and warm. All of these men and women can be said to be 'talented'.

But is talent real?

Is there something inside us - perhaps a genetic predisposition, or some gift from a higher power - that allows specific individuals to achieve remarkable success in a field where others simply cannot seem to?

Or is it merely hard work, passion and time - the most devoted, most interested and most involved push the furthest and get the most out of it?

Is it perhaps a combination of the two?

What do you think?
User avatar
Contrast
Necrotic Neurotic
Posts: 4696
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:06 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Necrobat
Contact:

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#2

Post by Contrast »

I think talent is just "base stats". Some people start out with higher stats in certain skills than others (possibly due to modifiers, like upbringing, environment, and access to the right tools and information), but that doesn't mean someone without a higher base stat can't achieve the same level of skill with enough grinding (i.e "practice").
Read my novel on: SoFurry | Fur Affinity | Deviant Art
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#3

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Yeah, talent is real. For some people, some things just come more easily. They still need to practice and put some work into it to get it to the highest level but that is a lot easier than if someone doesn't have a natural talent for that thing. You can get to a similar level of skill just by hard work but if someone with a natural talent works a similar amount then you will not be as good as them.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
Leeward
Recalcitrant Ruminant
Posts: 7036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#4

Post by Leeward »

I think talent is like a combination of a base stat and an xp multiplier. One is naturally better at something but also learns it faster, so less grinding is required.
User avatar
jacojerb
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:04 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: bunny/fox
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria east

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#5

Post by jacojerb »

I got 80% and more for maths throughout school, and I basically never studied

Yeah, talent is a thing

Though, I failed maths first semester of university, so... talent only brings you so far
Mew?
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#6

Post by Animew »

take a look at any old work from popfurs and you'll get a sense of how much work/raw talent it took to get to their level... for instance it took wolfynail almost 13 years to get to where he is now. and i remember the days when carrot's art was deleted from wild critters and he was boo-d away as a crappy artist... <w< now he is a living god of art... but he totes cheated by going to art school...
in 3 long years of drawing a lot, watching many cartoons and anime as well as studying other people's art i've gone from ULTRA MEGA SHIT to pretty darn adequate with drawing. talent is just an excuse lazy people use when they fail... it takes a LOT of sucking at something to become good at it... and even more perseverance to keep at it despite all that sucking.
\>w</ i for one feel that calling someone "talented" is insulting.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
CyntheWightRabbit
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#7

Post by CyntheWightRabbit »

I'm sure we all know that one person who karaoke's along with those songs on the radio so badly that you feel your ears would bleed, but you don't have the heart in it to tell them to stop because they clearly enjoy it. No? Well, I'm sure you can imagine that at least.

Are you telling me that that person, or even yourself, with enough practice would be able to sing as good as (gosh who's a good example) Sia? Or Adele or that Susan Boyle chick from that one talent show? [Yes I know EVERYONE can sing with Autotune but that's not the kind of singing I meant.]

It's the same with studying, as JJ brought up. I mean, you got those people in school who studied for weeks before an exam and just barely passed, and then you get that dude who literally just read up on the stuff the morning before and got A's. Are you saying those people who studied so much didn't put in enough effort?

Talent exists yo.
I'm not saying hard work doesn't pay off; I'm just saying hard work can only get you so far.
Sarcasm in the lowest form of wit.
User avatar
Sudan Red
Posts: 698
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:59 am
Gender: Female
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Lion
Region: Gauteng

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#8

Post by Sudan Red »



Relevant!
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#9

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Haven't read the paper this is about but they say it suggests that hard work narrows the gap between talent levels but can not overcome it.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... -work-hard
So if no one works hard then talented people will have much higher levels of skill. If everyone works hard then the skill difference will become less but those that were more talented and a natural aptitude will still perform better.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
ArtyLoop
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:37 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#10

Post by ArtyLoop »

In terms of talent, or describing one as talented I am going to take the same approach as Animew from now on and say that it is "insulting"
Reason: I never was able to art, draw, and do all of that, and yet, here I am in 2017, after a year and a half of effort I am approaching what it takes to become a furry artist. There is no talent involved. I am not particularly good at anything nor do I have an "affinity" for certain things due to my disability, however, I have pretty much overcome every single obstacle in my way to doing what I wanted to do in life. I don't really know what "talent" I have, even though many say I am talented in XYZ. Its simply not true for me.

I believe that, given another 18 months of effort, I will probably be on the same level as any of the well-known furry artists that all of us love and respect. And I am not blowing my own horn or trumpet. Its basically me putting in the work and effort and blood, sweat and tears and learning as I go. And its refreshing to run the whole gamut of wolves, foxes and such, not being limited to one narrow furry genre.
User avatar
Traden
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:34 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi-mostly gay
Species: Leopard
Region: Other

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#11

Post by Traden »

I think a big piece of talent that isn't talked about much is whether or not you just enjoy doing something. I know for myself, I want to draw and get some upper body strength, but practicing and doing strength exercises are very boring to me, so I've never improved much at either despite trying several times. On the other hand, I really enjoy the process of programming and writing music, and those are the two things I have been the most successful at.
User avatar
jacojerb
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:04 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: bunny/fox
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria east

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#12

Post by jacojerb »

Talent does not equal skill. Being talented and being skillful are two different concepts.

Arguing that talent doesn't exist because skill can be learnt is silly. Talent is defined as "natural aptitude or skill.". Whatever happens after is irrelevant

Drawing is a bad example, as it requires many hours of practice to be good. It comes easier for some people, but noone can draw a masterpiece as their first drawing

If you use other examples, e.g maths, memory or sports, some people are good at it without much practice, while other people need to work very hard to get on the same level. This doesn't mean it can't be mastered by anyone willing to dedicate themselves to it. Some people just have a head start
Mew?
ArtyLoop
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:37 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#13

Post by ArtyLoop »

Okay upon reflection a better term is aptitude. Because that means one has more of an ability to have an eye for things, to see things a certain way, than the next fellow.
We're all that way, in one way or another.
User avatar
Traden
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:34 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi-mostly gay
Species: Leopard
Region: Other

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#14

Post by Traden »

My understanding is that there's been research into the question of hard work vs. talent, and the conclusion is that at least believing that a skill can be learned greatly improves the probability that someone will be successful at it. On the other hand, believing that you either do or do not have an innate talent for a skill prevents you from reaching your potential at it - even if you are talented to begin with!

Here's an article from Stanford University's alumni magazine on the topic: https://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/ma ... e_id=32124

It says:
Students [who believe talent is innate] want to look smart even if it means not learning a thing in the process. For them, each task is a challenge to their self-image, and each setback becomes a personal threat. So they pursue only activities at which they’re sure to shine—and avoid the sorts of experiences necessary to grow and flourish in any endeavor. Students [who believe they can learn new skills through hard work], on the other hand, take necessary risks and don’t worry about failure because each mistake becomes a chance to learn. Dweck’s insight launched a new field of educational psychology—achievement goal theory.
If you want to read more about this, look up "growth mindset" versus "fixed mindset." Someone with a growth mindset believes hard work is more important than innate talent, and a fixed mindset is the opposite.
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#15

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

But whether people's beliefs affect how they respond to things says absolutely nothing about whether those beliefs are true or not. We should not pretend something is true just because we like the consequences of that belief. We should strive to have beliefs which are true and reflect reality.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
Leeward
Recalcitrant Ruminant
Posts: 7036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#16

Post by Leeward »

I have to agree with Rakuen on this one. The placebo effect may be real, but that doesn't mean placebos in and of themselves are effective at all, never mind better than the medication.
ArtyLoop
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:37 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#17

Post by ArtyLoop »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:22 am But whether people's beliefs affect how they respond to things says absolutely nothing about whether those beliefs are true or not. We should not pretend something is true just because we like the consequences of that belief. We should strive to have beliefs which are true and reflect reality.
True
I am trying to not have any beliefs, rather just trust in abilities, and that sort of thing.
That is the reason why I personally dislike the word "believe" and by extension the term "belief" because it sort of implies having to accept something that we don't really know much about. I don't want to start a debate about religion but that's one thing.
Leeward
Recalcitrant Ruminant
Posts: 7036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#18

Post by Leeward »

If you believe in fairies, clap your hands or Tinkerbell will die!!1 :lol:
User avatar
CyntheWightRabbit
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#19

Post by CyntheWightRabbit »

*claps his hands*

I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree. I'm of the mind that people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, so long as they don't force their beliefs onto others. If people are happy believing there are trillions of genders, who are we to tell them they're wrong? If people are happy believing they're an animal trapped in a human's body, who are we to tell them different? If people want to believe that they can contact their dead relatives through psychics and mediums for closure. Who are we to say that what they experienced wasn't true?

I mean, it doesn't affect us at all. Ah. But I forgot. People dislike it when others are happier than they are.

Honestly, I wouldn't have said anything if this was posted anywhere else, but I couldn't help but find it funny seeing this way of thinking on a furry forum. Nothing wrong with that, mind you. So long as you don't try to force someone to believe what you believe.
Sarcasm in the lowest form of wit.
Cape_F0X
Light-footed
Posts: 2294
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:35 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Vulpes chama
Region: Western Cape

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#20

Post by Cape_F0X »

Dammit Rakuen! Your science speak stuck a few nerves again.
ArtyLoop
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:37 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#21

Post by ArtyLoop »

A belief, in my humble opinion, is something you personally hold, i.e. it holds value in your head. This can be expanded to others who hold the same "beliefs".

A belief falls apart when its disproved by science. I trust science and especially things I can prove on my own empirically.
Getting back onto the subject at hand, there is such a thing as talent I suppose. Say for example Darrel Abbott, didn't have talent, well, he would probably shred in some mediocre band, and probably not have ended up in Pantera.
So I suppose, talent is that edge that some have over others, but it varies by degrees.

In my personal case, I am told consistently I have a "gift" for seeing electronic circuits work in my head. Well, you know what? I didn't always have that, its something that I developed over time. I sacrificed a lot for that.
I used to art in school, and this is also the thing.. my parents were so critical "you have luck, not talent" which put the bitter taste of parental disapproval in me for the last 25+ years (this despite having won the friggen regional art competition for that year) Until the day I had to draw something for work, then I realized, "well I can do this, screw them"
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#22

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Cape_F0X wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:57 pm Dammit Rakuen! Your science speak stuck a few nerves again.
I blame postmodernism. Pushed this idea that there is no such thing as truth and all opinions and views are equally valid.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
ArtyLoop
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:37 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#23

Post by ArtyLoop »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:50 am
Cape_F0X wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:57 pm Dammit Rakuen! Your science speak stuck a few nerves again.
I blame postmodernism. Pushed this idea that there is no such thing as truth and all opinions and views are equally valid.
Ah yes, that stuff...
Eventually we will be forced to accept that the Joneses down the road believe that Mother Mary lives in their fireplace and they have to light candles every day and chant at 12:00:00 or she will get upset and burn the house down. Because opinion counts more than truth. Sad really!
User avatar
SirFox
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:18 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: Fox
Region: Gauteng

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#24

Post by SirFox »

I'm a "talented" composer. But looking back, I think it is just hard work.
ArtyLoop
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:37 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#25

Post by ArtyLoop »

I am a "talented" digital artist by all accounts. But all it was, was blood, sweat and tears.
Image
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#26

Post by Animew »

Leeward wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:55 pm If you believe in fairies, clap your hands or Tinkerbell will die!!1 :lol:
Image


<w< the fucks been going on here!? i'm barely gone for a weekend and y'all start debating religion versus science without me!

ahem: firstly, belief is just a stand in function till we can verify something. at its core it can be defined as "information we believe to be plausible based on other information we have either verified for ourselves or also believe to be plausible based on yet more information. so you can see how someone could build an unshakable fortress tower of falsely plausible beliefs that support a great big pile of bullshit. HOWEVER! this event is not reserved for religious or spiritual stuff. in what you people call "science" there are little more than guesses holding up many popular theories (science beliefs) about the nature of our universe... i mean seriously theoretical physicists are all tripping on shrooms! just because smart people came up with the ideas don't make the ideas any less stupid. so laugh if you must at the disillusioned religious zealot but bare in mind blindly following the "scientist" because he seems smarter is just as idiotic as blowing yourself up in the name of god.


back the the actual topic... any of y'all figure the correlation between success rate of hard work and interest? you know, like how when you enjoy doing stuff the hard work isn't so hard hence you don't mind doing it?
differences in interest is plausible to the measure of being factual yes? "talent" is at this point just a belief based on the observation of varying success rates at actions no?
therefore its hard to say to a convincing degree that hard work is irrelevant to talent, since the effectiveness of hard work is dependent on interest that obviously.
hence i reaffirm my point:
Animew wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:21 pm talent is just an excuse lazy people use when they fail...
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
Leeward
Recalcitrant Ruminant
Posts: 7036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#27

Post by Leeward »

I'm not going to bother responding on the science vs. belief track because I'm just going to make myself angry and derail the thread further.


On the topic of talent, I have a perfect example. I've literally never made a sand sculpture apart from turning buckets upside-down when I was a toddler, yet yesterday I made this:


Image


Not to toot my own horn but given that that was my first attempt, do you still think talent isn't a real thing?
Cape_F0X
Light-footed
Posts: 2294
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:35 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Vulpes chama
Region: Western Cape

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#28

Post by Cape_F0X »

Image

Awesome ridges by the way!
Leeward
Recalcitrant Ruminant
Posts: 7036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#29

Post by Leeward »

Why are you standing in it then? :P Thanks.
Cape_F0X
Light-footed
Posts: 2294
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:35 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Vulpes chama
Region: Western Cape

Re: Talent - A Real Gift, or Fiction?

#30

Post by Cape_F0X »

Hey! This is not the comment on the profile pic above you thread. (Clever girl) You're welcome.
Post Reply