The great emigration debate

[Dracius]

I voted no too. We are all in the same boat as everyone else in the world and its pointless blocking off the rest of the world. So, lets get as much word out as possible

Its already bad enough that most known SA furs arent even from SA... as most just end up leaving...

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Its already bad enough that most known SA furs arent even from SA... as most just end up leaving...

You surprised? The country sucks. We don't even get a constant power supply. I know three SA furs that are planning to leave. Me being one.

[Dracius]

Yea... And since we all leave, cause it sucks so much here, it makes everything better here... Had a decent discussion with Keita about this the other night. The conclusion? What ever happens, happens....

I'm definintely not surprised. I know the entire situation like its written on the back of my paw. I just like to give my opinion here and there. I dont intende to detonate a Hiroshima...

[Kad FoxWolf]

Well even with all the bad here, fine we suffer and yes there are better places in the world... I could leave right now but i don't.

SA still is more home then any other place i have been too, everytime i get back i am happy to be back. Maybe i am just in the false idea that there is some hope left, but slowly it is running down... Maybe i'll be using my eu passport and never my sa one in the future.

Lets wait and see i guess

[Dracius]

Yea.. Just keep waiting. Such a sigh.

This is just how I think though. I dont feel any intention on leaving SA.

But you know, Cape Town has a huge influence on me... I've been to DBN and JHB, but I'm just far too used to CPT's typical day and life. I've been overseas 4 times, and I can only conclude for myself that its just good for site seeing, nothing else.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

I haven't ever been overseas so maybe if I do go I'll find it's nicer here but considering how things are here I doubt it. Then again most of the stuff I like doesn't come from here, it's from Europe and Asia. Also I wondered about coping with going to a country where English isn't the first language and then I realised I'm already in one. So since half the stuff here is in a language I don't understand (or several languages I don't understand) I don't think that will be a huge problem either.

[Keita Haruka]

There are reasons for going and reasons for staying. I don't hate South Africa. In fact, I love it. I've been all over, visited all the provinces, been to most places (except PE and surrounds, Knysna and the North coast) and there's not a single area I disliked. We have some truly wonderful people here and beautiful scenery. The Wild Coast is definitely one of my favourite places. South Africa has everything I'm used to. However...

...it lacks two things without which I can't operate over the long term. First and foremost...my beloved wolfy. SA immigation policy is such that he won't be allowed into the country without either a skill that is lacking here, or being married to a South African. Even then...that only gets him residence, not citizenship. And given the jobs situation here...there's no guaruntee he'd find employment. Which brings to the second point: political stability. Nobody can deny that the political situation here is at best murky and uncertain. Certain political leaders have not made themselves universally popular and frankly...many people would rather not be here, just in case they turn out to be correct about him.

When all is said and done, everybody has to look after themselves, because nobody else is going to do it for them. Certainly the country you live in isn't going to. Perhaps I'm just being cynical but I just don't believe that SA has a future for my mate and myself. Maybe it might for me...but not for the two of us together, and frankly...my mate means a helluva lot more to me than any kind of patriotism. So I'll make a foreign country I dislike my home for his sake.

[Dracius]

*sighs* oh well... cant blame a dragon for not wanting to leave his den...

*shakes his head to Kodey* Nah, was should keep it open to everyone, no need to block anyone from viewing the site.

You guys have NO IDEA how much i'm hoping that something will go right... Thats all I can do. I dont think I'd ever leave though, as I dont have a need to. So, all I just do is cross wings and hope...

The sad thing is... SA gets sooo pwned from expecting 1st world things from a 3rd world country.

I still stand with what I say. I'll completely and whole heartedly support my friends and family if they move overseas, because thats just the of dragon I am. But I'll never agree with it... (Unless SA is dead, then I have no choice...)

[Kodey]

I don't know hey. I don't think I'd ever be able to leave. SA is my home. I was born here, and I've lived my whole life here. I don't think i could live anywhere else. I'd miss my home too much. Even though this country has become what it is now, I have a feeling it's gonna change for the better.

[Keita Haruka]

Well, in my opinion, no country can ever mean more than one's partner. But that's just the kind of person I am. I've never agreed with the idea of patriotism. A country is a thing, a construct. It exists on a map because a bunch of people drew a line on a piece of paper and claimed the land as theirs. It is not a living entity, a being that exists independantly of the people within it. A country is supposed to look after the people who live in it, and the people pay for that protection out of their pockets. It's called taxes. That is what a country is DUE. That, and nothing more. The second it starts putting itself above its own people and begin to place "the good of the country" above the needs of its citizens, it loses it loses its very reason for existence. A country cannot ask of you to give up your dreams, your needs, or your live. NO inanimate object or geopolitical construct is worth that. The idea of "country" is just too nebulous for me to have any kind of emotional connection with.

[Dracius]

Well, in my opinion, no country can ever mean more than one's partner. But that's just the kind of person I am. I've never agreed with the idea of patriotism. A country is a thing, a construct. It exists on a map because a bunch of people drew a line on a piece of paper and claimed the land as theirs. It is not a living entity, a being that exists independantly of the people within it. A country is supposed to look after the people who live in it, and the people pay for that protection out of their pockets. It's called taxes. That is what a country is DUE. That, and nothing more. The second it starts putting itself above its own people and begin to place "the good of the country" above the needs of its citizens, it loses it loses its very reason for existence. A country cannot ask of you to give up your dreams, your needs, or your live. NO inanimate object or geopolitical construct is worth that. The idea of "country" is just too nebulous for me to have any kind of emotional connection with.

True Keita, though in a perfect world. And you are mostly basing your move because you love someone dearly, which is perfectly understandable.

But i'm going to bring up the lame topic of.. A country isnt supposed to go through years of seperation based on colour. We got it really harsh...

[Rakuen Growlithe]

But i'm going to bring up the lame topic of.. A country isnt supposed to go through years of seperation based on colour. We got it really harsh...

That's true, yeah. But that was in the past and we just have to move on. You can't keep blaming people for it or you'll never advance. Also the people coming out of school and stuff now had nothing to do with it so they shouldn't have to deal with being blamed.

I know affirmitive action is meant to redress the imbalances of the past but it's doomed to fail. Why? It's pretty much the reverse of the past. We were meant to fight for equality not a different form of discrimination. It's a lot easier to see through a metaphor. If you want to balance a scale and it's unbalanced you don't say that it needs to now be tipped in the other direction to make up for earlier, you just balance it.

People leave because of affirmitive action (well it's a reason for me anyway) and you'll make people bitter again. Then in 20 years time white people have a legitimate reason to want to be given preferance over blacks. You'll continually see-saw unless you take a stand now and end the cycle.

[Dracius]

Heh. Well Raki, like I said, I dont support it at all and I obviously know we cant blame the past.

But its like coming out of a War... We are clearly working at the situation, but the level of restoration that has been achieved is like 20% ... Other countries have had and dealt with their major problems in the past, and most places are still having major problems.

And about affirmitive action, it even happens in some states in the USA (remembers seeing news articles of a couple of states wanting to pass a bill that bans affirmitive action). SA gov just realised how stupid they are when they use affirmitive action *points to Eskom*.

If this isnt a wake up call to stop hiring more idiots into those high positions... SA would probably be doomed after 2010.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

In a way we did just come out of a war. Was a civil war though, not between two countries.

I remember reading an article on affirmitive action in the US. Showed how some black people felt. Some liked it and others didn't as they couldn't tell why they were hired. Especially for things like sports teams and musicians.

I doubt it'd be a wake up call anyway as most people in goverment are there for themselves and not for the people. I think what should be done for government in order to make it work better for the country is to take away their huge salaries and use it for development. Then politicians get paid the average of working age people in the country. That should ensure only those that actually want to help the country go into politics and they have a greater motivation to improve the lives of ordinary people.

[Dracius]

I doubt it'd be a wake up call anyway as most people in goverment are there for themselves and not for the people. I think what should be done for government in order to make it work better for the country is to take away their huge salaries and use it for development. Then politicians get paid the average of working age people in the country. That should ensure only those that actually want to help the country go into politics and they have a greater motivation to improve the lives of ordinary people.

Exactly! Thats the extreme sad part about it. I cant help but make a reference to this...

Its like in the times of the San and the Khoi-Khoi. (SP?) The king of his Kraal kept TONS of cattle for themselves, showing off their huge wealth. It seems to have shifted into the modern world.

Of course this is not a 1:1 relationship; but I guess I could make a cartoon out of it..

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Yeah, it's all selfish. I remember talking about something similar with my gran and said ignoring the bad stuff, Hitler was an okay leader. I think we were comparing with Idi Amin or something. Casue those guys did stuff for themselves and ruined their countries but Hitler, despite going about things in perhaps not the best possible way, did stuff for the country. He didn't say he wanted wealth or land, he wanted it for Germany. Which isn't such a bad thing unless it gets out of control which is what happened.

[Keita Haruka]

But i'm going to bring up the lame topic of.. A country isnt supposed to go through years of seperation based on colour. We got it really harsh...

True enough...but hey. I'm not the one who did it to you (generic you, not personal). And yet I get blamed for it. Every time a politician stands up and says "Well, you know, I just flew over the stinking Vaal river and it's all apartheid's fault. You white people pushed us into ghettos, so the sewage in the Vaal is your fault." I don't know about anyone else, but that kind of thing really gets up my ass. Instead of taking responsibility for it, (hey, come on, ir's been 14 YEARS since there was a white person in government) they blame it on the evil white people. And then they ask why racism is an issue still. But hey, it's okay if black people do it. It perfectly okay for white journalists to be tossed out of the room when the leader of the ANC speaks, no matter that some of those journalists fought just as hard for freedom as the black people did. "Sorry, your skin is white, so you helping us is meaningless. You were privileged in spite of suffering exile with us. Good bye!"

That's the kind of message that government is sending out, and then they ask in all seriousness "but why are you leaving? Oh, we need your skills. The brain drain is a huge problem. Please don't go."

I must be missing something here. They feel it's okay to treat people like shit because of something their parents may or may not have condoned, they won't allow them jobs they're qualified for, won't pay them decently and still expect them to take that abuse with their hands folded, accept the blame for everything that goes wrong even 14 YEARS after the fact. I'm sorry, but that's SO not going to happen.

Blame me for something I DID do, but i'll be damned if I'm going to accept responsibility and punishment for something I had no part in. If government is really serious about those wonderful words they always use like "equality" and "diversity" and "opportunity" and "possibility", then they'll get up off their gravy-train fed asses, stop sending mixed messages and actually set an example instead of shifting blame.

But hey. I can SERIOUSLY see that happening. Any time now. Btw, you don't mind if I don't hold my breath, do you?

[Dracius]

Arg, I just noticed that I could of been understood incorrectly.

I previously said "We got it really harsh...", by this I meant -everyone- in the entire country and I was definitely not refering to just my colour. I didnt point it at any race. I couldnt give a shit about skin colour, nearly all of my friends are white... (and not for any specific reason, this is just my life and how I live.) What I was refering to is that the entire country got its ass kicked in the rear. And now we are trying to pickup our broken pieces so that we can rebuild the "puzzle". Its just a matter of time I guess. So much time that people arent bothered to wait.

If government is really serious about those wonderful words they always use like "equality" and "diversity" and "opportunity" and "possibility", then they'll get up off their gravy-train fed asses, stop sending mixed messages and actually set an example instead of shifting blame.

Yea Keita.. *nods* They just arent educated enough to know how to set an example and improve things, other than themselves.

[Forgotten_Fox]

South Africa is aculy great for me. i will leave this country. You gotta be strong to be living here. Gotta be strong to survive

[Valerion]

I am in much the same boat as Keita. Even if visas were not an issue, would it be fair of me to ask my mate to come here? Give up everything in the US and start a new life here? Or is it more fair of me to go there?

Hard choice, yeah, but unfortunately I can't see the government planning very well to improve basic infrastructure. Roads are getting more and more congested by the day, power supply has stopped exceeding the demand for it, takes them forever to install water to some places. Telecoms sucks. But all the privileged ones keeps on getting their portions of the money set aside, until it's all gone. The only good thing about the 2010 Soccer World Cup (which was supposed to make a profit, but has since been announced as costing more than 8 times the initially envisaged amount) is that it forces some of the infrastructure to be built in a hurry.

And don't get me started on crime, that's a whole different thing *sighs*

[Dracius]

South Africa is aculy great for me. i will leave this country. You gotta be strong to be living here. Gotta be strong to survive

I'm sure you meant to add a "not" in there too. But anywayz, I completely agree, Forgotten. Its just that a number of people are just not willing to go through with it as its completely unnesseccary in life.

You could either move or live through hell on earth. (though I consider myself in heaven... *touches all wood he can find* o..O)

[Warwick]

Sorry to say this, but I really have no intention of living out the rest of my life in South Africa. Things are just too terrible. I just can't stand living in this place.

Sure...South Africa is a beautiful country, but is beauty going to pay my bills or keep me safe at night? NO, ofcourse not. South Africa has some of the highest crime-rates in Africa if not the world. Everything is expensive in this country.

In my family of lawyers, judges and social workers, I always hear of people who got raped, robbed or murdered in some horrible way. Just the other day, I heard of people who were killed in shocking ways that it gave me nightmares. A few years back a girl who lived right across from me nearly got raped in broad daylight

The weird part is that there are aqtually people from other countries who want to live in South Africa

[Kad FoxWolf]

Well this one i have to agree with Warwick on. I live in a small town with great police so i don't see the crime others see on their street every day. But every time i am in joburg i see it live with my eyes and if not i hear stories that make me sick and those who know me know i don't get sick easily...

Yes this is one big reason i will SA leave sooner or later. We are falling behind on too many fronts. Even if no other place feels SA, so be it i can at least be happy in the knowledge that i won't be murdered in my own home...

Those last bits of good are also starting to fade away fast in SA. Seems no one cares anymore, guess we are all seeing the sad truth that our hope may never come true...

[Forgotten_Fox]

i could sworn i added a "not" where did my "not" run off too? well i think things in this country will get better in time. "crime is getting better"

[Acey]

I am leaving South Africa for Canada and my reasons are:
* My BF lives in Canada
* Im kinda really tired of the heat and no electricity
* The majority of my friends live in the USA / Canada
* The crime rate is getting worse and we DO have terrible police
* Payment in Canada IS alot better
* Overpopulation and Aids

I dont see a bright future for myself staying here.. for the simple reason that its been 14 years since 1994 and I cant see ANY improvements in the country... sure its been home but sometimes the birds have to leave the nest ya know...

[Forgotten_Fox]

seems like almost all the za furries are leaving the motherland. well for me i will not leave. i am making a great living here now.

[Dracius]

seems like almost all the za furries are leaving the motherland. well for me i will not leave. i am making a great living here now.

Couldnt agree with you any more. I have no practical gain if I leave. I'm living a decent life. Just unlucky to those who dont. I -love- Cape Town.

[Warwick]

Well...to those who have a great life here...I'll be honest when I say that I am a bit jealous but the reasons for why I want to leave are not just of the fact that the country is going through a bad time...it's something way more personel

[Dracius]

Yea.. as you feel jealous, I feel sad that others dont get the same opportunities... Thats just how life goes I guess..

Ahhh. Any chance that it has to do with love? XD Hope its not too personal for you to not spill the beans on us

[Warwick]

Ahhh. Any chance that it has to do with love? XD Hope its not too personal for you to not spill the beans on us

Lol...love? No..I'm single if that is what you are referring too

No, my reasons are more in the category of trying to prove myself to other people