Atheism vs Antitheism

Any discussion not related to furry goes in here. Politics, religion, current affairs...this is the place for it.
User avatar
Franky
The Bad Guy
Posts: 1748
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:32 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Mortally Challenged Fox
Region: Gauteng
Location: Where bad things happen.
Contact:

Atheism vs Antitheism

#1

Post by Franky »

Atheism vs Antitheism

This is a topic I think is ready for debate for those who aren’t too sensitive for the subject which in lies the lack of belief. But what is the difference between the two?

Well I’ve honestly lived my life as an atheist since releasing myself from the grip of religion around 2005. Which is quite a while ago if you disconnect yourself from how quickly time seems to fly at my age? But something changed in the past three years. People got social media and the voices started getting heard.

So what is atheism?
Well it’s simply the lack of belief in a deity of any sorts. Belief being that which people simply take on faith. An agnostic person IS an atheist simply because of the reasoning of not knowing. Though many agnostics actually still pray, still holds on to the “what if.” This sounds much more attractive to the general population leaving religion and going into a more rational state of mind though there is another one.

Antitheism.
O.O yes as evil as it sounds I’m simply against theism as it stands. Not because I know there is no God but because I can show how religious beliefs damages society as it stood thousands of years ago and as it even stands today

So there is this thing again in Europe and this one hit hard because children… When children are killed then everyone listens. (However no one takes into account the thousands of innocents the US military killed over collateral damage. But let’s not justify evil with evil. It’s never an excuse.) Though what is an excuse are religious beliefs. This is F****en sickening to its core.

We saw Islam apologists defending these acts and whatnot but personally I have a serious thing against cultural traditions not being able to clean up the shyte within some of their own factions and then coming with “It’s only some of us.” Bullshyte.

For the Christians: The Old Testament is worse than the Quran btw. Just read it for a moment and see the foundations your entire religion is built upon.

It’s nitpicking in my opinion. What phrases you as a moral human being like and what not? How can anyone believe such rubbish in the modern age? Not to mention how the hell you do read a bible to kids at home saying if they don’t listen to their parents they’ll be stoned or that women are supposed to not confront their owners if they are sex slaves? “Oh wait that’s a figure of speech and….” Well hell and heaven is apparently literal. Lol

Conclusion: I’m an Antitheist militant if need be though I’m not going to start my own talk show or whatever. Out of evidence I can see religion and/or belief in the supernatural being damaging to our society. Chiropractors, homeopaths, Teaching children a worse punishment that sad dam Hussein could offer from the god they need to worship…? Who would worship such a being?

I’m attacking every religion, faith and belief at the moment. Anyone who is offended by this remember offense is taken not give. I assert the notion that religious teachings are a form of child abuse. It’s been dated back to ancient Egyptian times to be nothing but a scam and people are still making billions selling this rubbish to people yet it’s us being the evil ones.
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#2

Post by Animew »

Franky wrote:Antitheism
*clears throat* ah yes... again with a popularist outlook taking the stand and having a good old rant about how you feel the same way as most people do about something... somehow hoping you'd troll someone into disagreeing with you so you can take them apart with all the materials other people have worked hard on gathering... *sigh* doesn’t take a lot of courage to take the mainstream opinion my friend and i find it downright lazy. besides, you'd most likely just be getting an echo in here of people hating on religion... BOOORING AF! now if you really wana stir folks up you should take the side of the unpopular opinion. but i guess i'll do that for you and defend religion:

Franky wrote:offense is taken not give.
all right, so you are to blame for being offended by the bad stuff religion has caused?
that's a really misleading and inaccurate saying for one. it’s like saying that air pollution is not given its taken... or nuclear fallout for that matter. who is to blame, the person releasing a harmful substance into an environment or the person being affected by it?
Franky wrote:I can show how religious beliefs damages society
i'm pretty sure you can only show me people showing me these things... but i can show you just as many examples of religion having a positive impact on communities and the lives of people. fundamentally it is a system for bringing communities together and harboring goodwill towards our fellow man.
Franky wrote:I have a serious thing against cultural traditions not being able to clean up the shyte within some of their own factions and then coming with “It’s only some of us.” Bullshyte.
pfft! yea, just like how furries are always going: "it’s not all of us who rape animals and or children! yiffy freaks are just a small minority!"
face it... you can't stop other people from doing things... the only actions you have power over is your own and if you are going to discriminate against a Christian, Muslim or whatever just because they identify themselves as such then you are no better than a racist, sexist, homophobe, and basically any kind of bigot in existence, regardless of what other people in that big generalized group has done or are doing.
Franky wrote:I’m an Antitheist militant if need be
way to go, show the world your disapproval of things done by militant extremists by becoming one... nice...
Franky wrote:It’s been dated back to ancient Egyptian times to be nothing but a scam and people are still making billions selling this rubbish to people
greedy domineering people have always used popular things to control and take advantage of the masses, this is going to happen and is happening right now whether there is religion or not. it’s hardly a valid reason to discount something entirely. if you look closely you can already see it infecting the new darling of the main stream: science.
Franky wrote:yet it’s us being the evil ones.
lol, it’s a case of perspective and the general spin on things. to Christians, Christianity is the belief in a benevolent father figure that encourages peace love and all that jazz. to an antitheist Christianity is a bunch of child molesting crazies that believe in some invisible man in the sky that is always looking at you and judging you... so naturally if you tell a Christian that they are practicing a bullshit religion and you oppose it, they take that as you being against love peace and all that jazz... simple really, your point of view tends to dictate your beliefs.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
Galahad
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:31 pm
Gender: Male
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#3

Post by Galahad »

I'm actually going to have to agree with Animew on several points. ... Which is really boring, given that he is my favourite sparring partner when it comes to debating here.

It is all subjective. Or, at least, a sufficient portion of it is sufficiently subjective to make whole matter muddied and unclear. If you were to show me the horrors committed by Muslim extremists, I could point you to the atrocities committed by the secular communist regime of Joseph Stalin. If you were to enumerate the thousands of casualties of the Crusades, I could enumerate the deaths under secular dictatorship of Chairman Mao. Which is more valid? You cannot empirically and objectively answer that question, because you are no longer in the realm of absolutes.

In my opinion, any ideology, no matter how appealing its teachings, is dangerous when radicalized. Any ideology. Even if the central doctrine is peace.
For example, if I were a 'peace' extremist, I could go on a crusade with the philosophy that 'peace is only achieved when any who have the means to disturb it are exterminated'. There you go. I am now a peace extremist. If you threaten my peace, I ensure you are removed from the equation. "But that isn't peace!" you might say. ... What does it matter to me? To me, your view is both irrelevant and apostate. As far as I am concerned, I am fighting for peace.

Statistically speaking, it is very likely you will find radicals and extremists of every and any ideology. That is a facet of human nature. Yes, the argument can be made that some extremists are less dangerous than others: a Muslim extremist may drive a truck into an innocent crowd, whereas a Buddhist extremist might... ... die from sleep deprivation from over-meditation. ... Right? Well... Not exactly. Buddhist extremists have not just been implicated but proven to be involved in many crimes. Wikipedia is not a prime academic source, but you can read a little about it over HERE.

Any ideology has the potential to become radicalized.

Radical Islam is, to me, as sickening as radical Christianity, as sickening as radical atheism, as sickening as radical X, where X is a variable for any ideology that will have an impact on the community.

That all being said, I am an atheist and a skeptic. Would I want to see organized religion gone? Yes. Can I say the world will definitely be a better place without it? No, but I believe greater progress can be made without it. Can I say that I am free of bias when answering these questions? No.


... Okay. I am bored. Let me play a little bit of the Devil's Advocate with Animew. :3
Animew wrote:way to go, show the world your disapproval of things done by militant extremists by becoming one... nice..
Ah, but what about "Si vis pacem, para bellum"? Can I not justify being militant by saying that it is only by taking up arms and defeating the enemy - and laying down the arms afterwards - that the "evil" will truly be gone, and that tolerating it will only perpetuate the current uncomfortable conditions? ... Oh, don't worry... I promise to lay down the arms afterwards...
User avatar
jacojerb
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:04 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: bunny/fox
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria east

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#4

Post by jacojerb »

I always say: "judge a person by their actions, not their beliefs". Sure, some people take religion too far, and some people extort religion. Those people are, in my beliefs, wrong. But even so, in the grander scheme of things, "it's my word against yours"

Even though I am no longer a Christian, I still have Christian morals, for the most part. That's how I was raised, the world I was brought into. Since then, Ive started thinking a looot about morality. What is right and wrong. One of my base rules is "if you aren't hurting anyone or anything, you can not possibly be wrong". Logically speaking, this is sound. But I am reminded daily that most people do not base their morals off of pure logic. It all depends on a bunch of factors

Yes, religion is a huge factor. In a way, it is brainwashing, teaching a child it from basically day one. For a lot of people, one of the first books their parents will read for them is the Bible. Whilst I do not like it, logically speaking, it does little harm, and is, most probably, brought on by a sense of community (everyone in your community is doing it) and tradition (my parents did it with me, so I'll do it with my child). Both very human things. Things you can not blame anyone for... Point is, being religious isn't, in and of itself, bad, and noone can be blamed for it

On the other hand, using religion as a reason to hate... Unforgivable (in my views). But in most cases, people use religion as an excuse rather than as a reason. They'll quote some words from their various scriptures and use it to justify their actions. I am not okay with this. But, once again, this is the people's fault, not religions fault

Lastly, for some more radical cases, such as muslim extremists... I want you to try to imagine... Growing up in a world where those are the morals. Forget everything you've ever known. Imagine only ever being taught, only ever being shown that that is the way the world is and that is the correct thing to do. It's hard to imagine, obviously...

Tradition and community are such a big influence on people's morals and beliefs. Heck, ignore religion. Think about inner city gang life (or here in S-A, township gang life). People are brought up thinking its a good thing to kill, under certain circumstances.

Philisophically speaking, if a person truly believes that what he's doing is right... How is your right and wrong better than his, when both are simply beliefs

In closing: I do not hate religion. I hate assholes. You'll find them in any religion (or lack thereof), culture etc. I judge people on who they are, not in what they believe, and even so, I am aware that it is simply my morals and beliefs driving me, that each person has their own. Even if there was a culture/religion where its literally okay to kill and eat people... I'm sure there would be some cool guys who don't. Rather judge the individual than the group.
Mew?
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#5

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:I can show how religious beliefs damages society
i'm pretty sure you can only show me people showing me these things... but i can show you just as many examples of religion having a positive impact on communities and the lives of people. fundamentally it is a system for bringing communities together and harboring goodwill towards our fellow man.
There are two main responses to that. The first, which I won't agree with 100% is the quote, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." You also get a different form of disagreement that PZ Myers made (before I stopped reading him because he went full SJW); even if religion made everyone behave wonderfully, it would still be a lie and that is reason enough to oppose it.
Galahad wrote:It is all subjective. Or, at least, a sufficient portion of it is sufficiently subjective to make whole matter muddied and unclear. If you were to show me the horrors committed by Muslim extremists, I could point you to the atrocities committed by the secular communist regime of Joseph Stalin. If you were to enumerate the thousands of casualties of the Crusades, I could enumerate the deaths under secular dictatorship of Chairman Mao. Which is more valid? You cannot empirically and objectively answer that question, because you are no longer in the realm of absolutes.
Christopher Hitchens argued that the Stalinism and Maoism and all those sort of regimes were actually religious and not atheist. They did not practice traditional religion but they held leaders in such reverence that leaders like Stalin replaced religious figures. In addition, those comparisons fail because you approach it superficially as though because one is religious and the other is atheist that the motivations are the same. That's not the case. If a Muslim extremist flies a plane into a building because it aligns with his understanding of his religion then that can be attributed to religion. If a Muslim blows up a building because his former boss slept with his wife after having him fired a company he started, then his religion is irrelevant. The atrocities committed by Stalin and Mao were generally not to do with atheism itself but with promoting a specific interpretation of nationalism.
Galahad wrote:Statistically speaking, it is very likely you will find radicals and extremists of every and any ideology. That is a facet of human nature. Yes, the argument can be made that some extremists are less dangerous than others: a Muslim extremist may drive a truck into an innocent crowd, whereas a Buddhist extremist might... ... die from sleep deprivation from over-meditation. ... Right? Well... Not exactly. Buddhist extremists have not just been implicated but proven to be involved in many crimes. Wikipedia is not a prime academic source, but you can read a little about it over HERE.
Again, you should read Christopher Hitchens. In God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, he devoted an entire chapter to religious inspired terrorism by Buddhists.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
User avatar
Galahad
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:31 pm
Gender: Male
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#6

Post by Galahad »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Christopher Hitchens argued that the Stalinism and Maoism and all those sort of regimes were actually religious and not atheist. They did not practice traditional religion but they held leaders in such reverence that leaders like Stalin replaced religious figures.
And? That still occurred in the absence of mainstream religion. Neither God nor religious doctrine as is commonly defined was involved - hence, secular. More on that below. Call it "religious", if you really want, but now you are just playing around with semantics and labels. The "religion" of "Stalinism" and "Maosim" had political doctrine, not spiritual. And even if you call it "religious", it is simply not "religious" in the same sense as mainstream Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, as those three concern faith in an explicitly supernatural, superhuman and unseeable higher power, along with faith in prophecy and afterlife; which are wholly distinguishable from the political dogma of those two regimes. So why bother joining the two categories under the same term?

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:The atrocities committed by Stalin and Mao were generally not to do with atheism itself but with promoting a specific interpretation of nationalism.
A form of nationalism that necessarily had atheism as an ingredient. Because otherwise the dictator would not be the most powerful being or influence as seen by his subjects, which would be undesirable. The two cannot be separated. Here, I'll substantiate: If you want light reading, here is a Wikipedia article on the USSR anti-religious campaign under Stalin's dictatorship, which was "like the campaigns of other periods that formed the basis of the USSR's efforts to eliminate religion and replace it with atheism supported with a materialist world view." If you want a more academic and technical source, feel free to read the citation at the end of that sentence on the article.

Atheism was a key and inextricable philosophy in the USSR's national mission. Does that make atheism inherently evil? No. But you cannot separate it from the political climate of that time, just as you cannot separate Christianity and Islam from the Crusades, even if there were significant economical and political factors involved then as well.
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#7

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Galahad wrote:And? That still occurred in the absence of mainstream religion. Neither God nor religious doctrine as is commonly defined was involved - hence, secular. More on that below. Call it "religious", if you really want, but now you are just playing around with semantics and labels. The "religion" of "Stalinism" and "Maosim" had political doctrine, not spiritual. And even if you call it "religious", it is simply not "religious" in the same sense as mainstream Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, as those three concern faith in an explicitly supernatural, superhuman and unseeable higher power, along with faith in prophecy and afterlife; which are wholly distinguishable from the political dogma of those two regimes. So why bother joining the two categories under the same term?
The point was rebutting the idea that he would somehow like such a secular society by noting the similarities to traditional religion and the difference with how he would like a society to be structured.
Galahad wrote:A form of nationalism that necessarily had atheism as an ingredient. Because otherwise the dictator would not be the most powerful being or influence as seen by his subjects, which would be undesirable. The two cannot be separated. Here, I'll substantiate: If you want light reading, here is a Wikipedia article on the USSR anti-religious campaign under Stalin's dictatorship, which was "like the campaigns of other periods that formed the basis of the USSR's efforts to eliminate religion and replace it with atheism supported with a materialist world view." If you want a more academic and technical source, feel free to read the citation at the end of that sentence on the article.

Atheism was a key and inextricable philosophy in the USSR's national mission. Does that make atheism inherently evil? No. But you cannot separate it from the political climate of that time, just as you cannot separate Christianity and Islam from the Crusades, even if there were significant economical and political factors involved then as well.
Atheism was an ingredient in those regimes but it was not a justification. A major difference between atheism and religion is that religions have guidelines and such. Atheism is simply the rejection of religion and does not have any texts or shared beliefs beyond that which justify any particular action. There is no set of tenets or teachings in atheism like there scriptures and commandments in most religions.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
User avatar
Splicer-Fox
Posts: 1956
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:38 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Fox fennec springbok thing
Region: Gauteng
Location: Thailand
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#8

Post by Splicer-Fox »

This topic got a little TL;DR so excuse me if I repeat anything already said.
Also I think I may have already posted something similar somewhere else.

Religion/Ideology is our swarming behaviour.
It’s wat makes family tribes into super tribes and empires.
Worship is not a unnatural phenomenon but something that even isolated human beings naturally do.

The purpose of Religion is too swarm.
Create continent spanning cooperation and mega armies.
With a powerful stable religion you can focus an agenda to do amazing things.
Like to conquer territory, build great feats of engineering, Or land on the moon.

Islam is a very interesting Ideology.
Much more effective than its modern counterparts at creating fearless ruthless soldiers for the great Waaagh!.
It empowers a undying army that won’t go away no matter how much you bomb them.
And it won’t stop until the old dictators and Israel are dead.
The last time we had such soldiers was with Japan but it seems that they ultimately follow their emperor in surrender. (Islam I am not so sure will ever surrender)

As for modern science we have much to give thanks to the Catholics and other Christians.
The West slightly retooled their religion to make God a mystery you need to find inside atoms and amongst the stars.
I had an argument about this regarding Einstein.
The Jewish man who made his own personal god of science. (But this ended up making quantum physics his personal heresy though)

And let’s not forget what Atheism help to brew.
All the regressive movements like 3rd wave feminism have had their communities grown and strengthen by the collapse of atheist communities.
It seems that atheists cannot stand together without an ideology. LOL

If you really want to get rid of all the perceived drawbacks and evils of religion you are going to have to do something about that thing marked in orange.
(Because no amount of atheism will save your world while that is still doing its thing)
reptilian-brain-e1375808508161.png
reptilian-brain-e1375808508161.png (61.58 KiB) Viewed 3876 times
Otherwise you will need to prepare for the Feminist Anarchist, Communist, Environmentalist, Waaagh!.
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#9

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Splicer-Fox wrote:This topic got a little TL;DR
There were only seven posts. o.0
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
User avatar
Splicer-Fox
Posts: 1956
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:38 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Fox fennec springbok thing
Region: Gauteng
Location: Thailand
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#10

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:
Splicer-Fox wrote:This topic got a little TL;DR
There were only seven posts. o.0
7 walls of text,
4 wring styles.
Many points being made.
Lots of scrolling.
User avatar
Splicer-Fox
Posts: 1956
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:38 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Fox fennec springbok thing
Region: Gauteng
Location: Thailand
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#11

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Ugh... I did reed through everything in one go that i thought was important.
I realize what i said makes it seem like i ignored you all X_X
SRY
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#12

Post by Animew »

Galahad wrote:agree with Animew
ah crap, its cold enough as it is without you making it snow.
Galahad wrote:but what about "Si vis pacem, para bellum"?
yea? well, what about: "cupio coitit cum vulpem"?! huh? (/<w<)/ You ever consider that? huh Galla-had? Well? Did you?
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:There are two main responses to that.
mah man! fire dog to the rescue! i was starting to get nervous for a moment there \(OwO)/ i mean folks were agreeing with me and stuff, can you imagine...
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:You also get a different form of disagreement that PZ Myers made
Ծ_Ծ really? REALLY!? *sigh* your main point is two quotes that you admit to not even agreeing with? points for trying to throw fuel on the fire but i'd really prefer your own opinions on the matter. or at least your interpretation of said quotes, possibly removing the stuff you don’t agree with? Owo i mean since you tend to represent your own views or at least pretend to in a debate...

but to take those quotes apart: religion is not mutually exclusive in leading good people to do bad things, propaganda has proven capable of doing that whether it be religious scientific or otherwise. it’s not religion that is an insult to human dignity, its blind faith and that is by no means limited to religion... the other quote isn’t really worth the effort since it’s just a guy denying something other folks believe in.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Again, you should read Christopher Hitchens. In God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, he devoted an entire chapter to religious inspired terrorism by Buddhists.
yea Gallahad! read the BOOK and yea shall believe! lol, Rakuen there will come a point where you realize that religious extremists and even the non extremist religious people are just folks falling for the nice words some dingusus wrote in books… just, like, you. there are entire lines of psychological studies done on the art of making people believe shit... and let me tell you, the people who know how to make you believe shit REALLY know what they are doing... so i'd urge you to have a moment of introspection whenever you have a moment of strong belief, that has you quoting what other people said like a parrot... maybe, just MAYBE... <w< you're falling for an eloquently packaged bit of "some other fools agenda"… just a thought…
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Atheism is simply the rejection of religion and does not have any texts or shared beliefs
So mutual disbelief in god is not a shared belief? Pfft, anyway give it time... you can spin any set of beliefs into a system for controlling people. even the lack of belief... tho i'm going to bet science is going to be the next big set of blinkers... but hey that’s just my opinion, perhaps you’ll get atheist churches at some point yet. <w< and then they can have anti-mass on sunday.
Splicer-Fox wrote:The purpose of Religion is too swarm.
i thought that was the purpose of clans, tribes, governments, kingdoms and such?
Splicer-Fox wrote:And it won’t stop until the old dictators and Israel are dead.
oh that’s not for religious reasons, that’s just because Israel is aggressively annexing their land and basically forcibly kicking them out of their own country... this entire "Arabs are the bad guys" spiel is the equivalent of the ANC taking white peoples land by armed force and banning white people from even living on it. then calling all white people christian extremists/terrorists if they fight back and if they don’t fight back they blow up their own shit so they can blame it on white folks... just saying...
Splicer-Fox wrote:All the regressive movements like 3rd wave feminism have had their communities grown and strengthen by the collapse of atheist communities
i blame that on all the liberal compromises... when they legalized gay marriage and made such a big deal out of it, feminazis figured they could bully some MOAR equality out of the system... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that’s just what you get when a governing structure looks weak in the eyes of its people... if i was them i'd have just waited for the hype about gay marriage to settle down and out of the blue forcibly legalized it against people's will, instead of "caving to pressure" OwO/ i mean what can caving under pressure accomplish other than inviting more pressure?
but i digress.
Splicer-Fox wrote:If you really want to get rid of all the perceived drawbacks and evils of religion you are going to have to do something about that thing marked in orange.
(Because no amount of atheism will save your world while that is still doing its thing
yea no totes! breathing and heart function is the root of all evil! stupid medulla oblongata!
Splicer-Fox wrote:Ugh... I did reed through everything in one go that i thought was important.
I realize what i said makes it seem like i ignored you all X_X
SRY
don’t feel bad, skim reading is what keeps forum debates alive! lol, if everyone reads everything and considers the other persons point of view we would all be agreeing on something <w< and wouldn’t that be boring…
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
Splicer-Fox
Posts: 1956
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:38 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Fox fennec springbok thing
Region: Gauteng
Location: Thailand
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#13

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Animew wrote: yea no totes! breathing and heart function is the root of all evil! stupid medulla oblongata!
Medulla oblongata?
I see that you have not done your research.

Here I have highlighted it so you can more clearly see.

The literal root and stem of all the evil, humans commit.
Cape_F0X
Light-footed
Posts: 2294
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:35 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Vulpes chama
Region: Western Cape

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#14

Post by Cape_F0X »

I don't think the forum's code of conduct allows you to call everyone a Dickhead.
User avatar
Faanvolla
Plaas Brak
Posts: 1961
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:55 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: Dog (Vampire)
Region: Western Cape
Location: Stellenbosch
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#15

Post by Faanvolla »

Animew wrote: just folks falling for the nice words some dingusus wrote in books
there are entire lines of psychological studies
So you're just believing what they wrote?
/jks :P
Seize the day, not your bearings.
Steam, Rockstar SocialClub, Uplay, Battlenet: Faanvolla#2539, Telegram: @Faanvolla
Switch Code: SW-0054-4917-1029
DeviantArt,Furaffinity,SoFurry, Weasyl, FurryNetwork
ProfilePic by hanimetion
User avatar
Valerion
Alpha Wolf
Posts: 2803
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:50 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: Werewolf
Region: Gauteng
Location: ::1
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#16

Post by Valerion »

Cape_F0X wrote:I don't think the forum's code of conduct allows you to call everyone a Dickhead.
I am in agreement with that. Image removed.
User avatar
Splicer-Fox
Posts: 1956
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:38 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Fox fennec springbok thing
Region: Gauteng
Location: Thailand
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#17

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Valerion wrote: I am in agreement with that. Image removed.
Here. I gave it some Japanese censoring:
Last edited by Rakuen Growlithe on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed non-PG-13 image
Cape_F0X
Light-footed
Posts: 2294
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:35 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Vulpes chama
Region: Western Cape

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#18

Post by Cape_F0X »

I think it is a shame that there are people without a religion. They are missing out on some epic blessings!
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#19

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Okay... I've removed an inappropriate image as well now. Do not continue to post such images.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#20

Post by Animew »

Splicer-Fox wrote:Medulla oblongata?
I see that you have not done your research.
what's to research? you can clearly see where it is in the color section of the picture you posted...
Image
Faanvolla wrote:So you're just believing what they wrote?
lol, nope... but by considering a few facts that i've verified for myself, i can say with a great deal of certainty that these studies do in fact exist... (Owo)\ besides it even has a spiffy word and everything... you know: "psychology". and i can verify the existence of propaganda for myself, and it’s not a great stretch of the mind that the more you know about the mind... the better you'll be at manipulating it... so really... to me, just believing stuff because you think it comes from a reliable source is fundamentally naive. it’s like seeing an army of hackers having the tools time and resources to figure out your security system... but then thinking you'll be fine behind your default "common sense" firewall... *sigh* i weep for humanity... i really do... i mean you see people having bullcrap talked into their heads every single day yet everyone has this suspiciously prevalent idea that it’s impossible for it to happen to them.
Cape_F0X wrote:I don't think the forum's code of conduct allows you to call everyone a Dickhead.
who called who a dickhead now?
or is it because the triune brain model thing kinda resembles a penis?

... i mean a shark brain sort of resembles a uterus?

OH wait!... so that’s what you meant by the root of all evil humans commit? Man I’m slow today… (Owo)\ tho there were androgynous cultists that believed they were aliens and wanted to take a ride on an asstroid... they all killed themselves despite having cut off their genitals so in the end their roots of evil weren’t the culprits...
Splicer-Fox wrote: Here. I gave it some Japanese censoring:
the establishment is cracking down hard on obscene images bro... even the ones that aren’t obscene.
Cape_F0X wrote:I think it is a shame that there are people without a religion. They are missing out on some epic blessings!
i know right, and you unlock some serious perks when you rack up more than 7 blessings.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
Faanvolla
Plaas Brak
Posts: 1961
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:55 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: Dog (Vampire)
Region: Western Cape
Location: Stellenbosch
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#21

Post by Faanvolla »

Animew wrote:
Faanvolla wrote:So you're just believing what they wrote?
lots of text
I was just making a joke >.>
Seize the day, not your bearings.
Steam, Rockstar SocialClub, Uplay, Battlenet: Faanvolla#2539, Telegram: @Faanvolla
Switch Code: SW-0054-4917-1029
DeviantArt,Furaffinity,SoFurry, Weasyl, FurryNetwork
ProfilePic by hanimetion
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#22

Post by Animew »

Faanvolla wrote:I was just making a joke >.>
^w^ i know... but it gave me an excellent opportunity to rant about the propaganda filtering into every aspect of our lives and how it goes completely unnoticed by everyone.

(Owo)\ i mean most folks tend to just ignore everything i say so i gotta be triggered with what i can. *sigh* a lot more folks engaged when you're just rude and belligerent, <w< dare make one or two measly valid arguments and everyone goes quiet… ignores you even…
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
jacojerb
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:04 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Gay
Species: bunny/fox
Region: Gauteng
Location: Pretoria east

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#23

Post by jacojerb »

Animew wrote:<w< dare make one or two measly valid arguments and everyone goes quiet… ignores you even…
Except, people actually replied to your thing...

I don't mean to be that guy, but noone replied to my post which I put effort into... And I wouldn't be complaining, except that you're complaining about something that happened to me
Mew?
User avatar
Splicer-Fox
Posts: 1956
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:38 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Fox fennec springbok thing
Region: Gauteng
Location: Thailand
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#24

Post by Splicer-Fox »

I had this disagreement with a furry Theist on Facebook once.
He posted on his profile that atheists are militant.
He then gave me Richard Dawkins as an example of a militant atheist.
Obviously I disagreed completely.
But for how long still before this comes to pass though?
Having not an individual that commits hate crimes against theist but a movement or organisation?

We already have atheist big wigs like Steve Shives who stated that its ok to physically harm people they deem to be Nazis.
And now recently we have Bernie Sanders supporters that have individually committed jihad in the name of secular views?
The atheists will soon start killing in the name of unbelief as an organised group someday, I think….

I was also thinking about the violence that’s a natural part of the human condition.
There are a few Sci-Fi that play with the idea of curing humans.
Ludovico treatment - A Clockwork Orange
Prozium II - Equilibrium
Surak's code – Vulcans - Star Trek
A chill-Pill

In reality it seems that meds make people more likely to shoot up schools and murder people unfortunately.
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#25

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

This stuff happens because people are not open to compromise at all. Either you agree with them or you're a terrible person. Unless people accept that someone can disagree with them and hold different views and priorities without being a terrible person, we're going to have problems. Everything is just so polarised.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
User avatar
Sa1tflat
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:24 pm
Gender: Does it matter?
Species: A filthy hybrid
Region: Gauteng
Location: Some place I shouldn't be

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#26

Post by Sa1tflat »

I agree with a lot of the points made above but I decided to add my opinion.

Religion was a tool for order. It was used to instruct people how to behave and the morals they should have, in most cases. If I look at religion's it usually has the same principles aka do not steal, do not kill other people, respect your elders. And if you did not follow the rules a higher power (or powers) would punish you.

As we progressed we made laws that punish you. So it was a good tool but now it seems obsolete.

So nowadays religion is used as a reason for killing others without the same views. So it has become the opposite of what it used to be.

So I think that it was an great tool but it got corrupted by human beings. Stuff like communism works in theory but not in reality as we humans corrupt every thing...

So essentially I am saying that humanity corrupts all. But yet I am part of the problem so hey what can I say?

The book God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything seems like a good read. So thanks for giving me my next book to read.

That's all folks!
@Sa1tflat on telegram.
I definitely straight as shit, definitely
Ok maybe not
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#27

Post by Animew »

jacojerb wrote:Except, people actually replied to your thing...
<w< that doesn’t void my bitching license tho.
jacojerb wrote:I don't mean to be that guy, but noone replied to my post which I put effort into... And I wouldn't be complaining, except that you're complaining about something that happened to me
that was probably because you were the third person to represent the "it’s not the religion, it’s the people" stance. even if someone were to cherry pick reply to it like i often do, they would have addressed all the points by the time they got to your post and would likely have only given "like i said..." responses.

instead Galahad’s post represented the best post to reply to because he isn’t a nut like me and his post is above yours. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ tiz all about the timing foxy... all about timing...
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:This stuff happens because people are not open to compromise at all. Either you agree with them or you're a terrible person. Unless people accept that someone can disagree with them and hold different views and priorities without being a terrible person, we're going to have problems. Everything is just so polarised.
<w< yea, just like how in the academic world if you don’t agree with the mainstream theories you are not just a terrible person... you're a dumb terrible person am i right?

but as for stuff being polarized, i'm afraid it’s never that simple since there is not just two sides... every person that exists has his/her own opinion/beliefs/etc, let’s call these “directions” for the sake of this analogy. some go more or less in the same direction but there are some pulling in the other direction and folks pulling in opposite directions tend to not like each other because they seem to be fucking it up for one another... so you will always get people opposing other people because people have their own agendas that sometimes influence the outcome of other peoples agendas. sometimes one direction gets a lot of folks pulling in that direction and it gains enough momentum to pull all the other saps along and this bothers them, getting more mooks to go in your direction is therefore the logical solution... and hence all this crap we see today... you call it polarization, but i call it societal inertia... we maintain an inert society by having folks going in ALL the directions at once so that we go nowhere.
Sa1tflat wrote:Religion was a tool for order.
i'm going to have to stop you right there, sometimes religion was a tool for getting good harvests and justifying sex orgies... a more accurate description would be that it’s a tool for neatly packaging a set of ideas into a portable identifiable form so that it can be spared more or less intact... like a viral envelope..
and like most vessels, its contents often define it like with a bottle of beer being called a beer... but it's contents by no means describes the contents of every other vessel. and even tho its usually a safe bet to assume there is beer in a beer bottle, assumptions are the tools people use to make you drink piss with the understanding that its beer.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
Franky
The Bad Guy
Posts: 1748
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:32 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Mortally Challenged Fox
Region: Gauteng
Location: Where bad things happen.
Contact:

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#28

Post by Franky »

Animew wrote:*clears throat* ah yes... again with a popularist outlook taking the stand and having a good old rant about how you feel the same way as most people do about something... somehow hoping you'd troll someone into disagreeing with you so you can take them apart with all the materials other people have worked hard on gathering... *sigh* doesn’t take a lot of courage to take the mainstream opinion my friend and i find it downright lazy. besides, you'd most likely just be getting an echo in here of people hating on religion... BOOORING AF! now if you really wana stir folks up you should take the side of the unpopular opinion. but i guess i'll do that for you and defend religion:
Firstly I'm not your friend, secondly mainstream opinion? Maybe you didn't read this but this isn't a popular stance at all even among atheists who still make up the smaller percentage compared to the dominating popular ideologies.

But since your bored to death here and resorting to RP talk and all caps expressing emotion why did you make such a big effort to reply at all?
Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:offense is taken not give.
all right, so you are to blame for being offended by the bad stuff religion has caused?
that's a really misleading and inaccurate saying for one. it’s like saying that air pollution is not given its taken... or nuclear fallout for that matter. who is to blame, the person releasing a harmful substance into an environment or the person being affected by it?
The context is in speech. I don't take offense when someone takes a stance opposing mine in verbal form. But your examples points to things which actually affects the wellbeing of individuals not whether their emotions get hurt by words but physically harms them.

It doesn't affect a non reader at all unlike the damaging things religion does and has done in society.
Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:I can show how religious beliefs damages society
i'm pretty sure you can only show me people showing me these things... but i can show you just as many examples of religion having a positive impact on communities and the lives of people. fundamentally it is a system for bringing communities together and harboring goodwill towards our fellow man.
There are ways to do that without introducing the existence of a magical sky fairy. You are part of one of those things on this forum.
Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:I have a serious thing against cultural traditions not being able to clean up the shyte within some of their own factions and then coming with “It’s only some of us.” Bullshyte.
pfft! yea, just like how furries are always going: "it’s not all of us who rape animals and or children! yiffy freaks are just a small minority!"
There is no statistic which proves a higher percentage of people inside the furry fandom does the things you exclaim than outside of it. There is however mountains of evidence proving a large portion of terrorist attacks having religion at its foundation.
Animew wrote: face it... you can't stop other people from doing things... the only actions you have power over is your own and if you are going to discriminate against a Christian, Muslim or whatever just because they identify themselves as such then you are no better than a racist, sexist, homophobe, and basically any kind of bigot in existence, regardless of what other people in that big generalized group has done or are doing.
Except I am not a racist sexist homophobe or whatever. Though many religions yet again teaches it's followers to be.
Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:I’m an Antitheist militant if need be
way to go, show the world your disapproval of things done by militant extremists by becoming one... nice...
That might sound a bit social justice warriorish of me but in debate yeah. Referring to me as an extremist suggest I'd strap a bomb around myself to kill believers. No. A civilised person wouldn't do this. Only a indoctrinated delusional person or psychopath would.

Comparing me a person debating the subject with a deluded individual killing people for his faith in a magic sky fairy is digging for a point you won't get among a civilised debate.
Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:It’s been dated back to ancient Egyptian times to be nothing but a scam and people are still making billions selling this rubbish to people
greedy domineering people have always used popular things to control and take advantage of the masses, this is going to happen and is happening right now whether there is religion or not. it’s hardly a valid reason to discount something entirely. if you look closely you can already see it infecting the new darling of the main stream: science.
This I do agree with but it's easier for theists to justify paying for church but complaining about the 2.5% tax for scientific research. Scientists don't make as much as large accounting firms, Banks or some ideologies. Whenever poor mister scientists discovers something fraud and pseudoscience schemers jumped on the concepts as if they where in heat and actually making huge success at selling these products which is nothing but nonsense.

It's easy to sell people stuff they don't understand. Including answers like what their purpose is and what it'll be like after your dead. Does this ring any bells?
Animew wrote:
Franky wrote:yet it’s us being the evil ones.
lol, it’s a case of perspective and the general spin on things. to Christians, Christianity is the belief in a benevolent father figure that encourages peace love and all that jazz. to an antitheist Christianity is a bunch of child molesting crazies that believe in some invisible man in the sky that is always looking at you and judging you... so naturally if you tell a Christian that they are practicing a bullshit religion and you oppose it, they take that as you being against love peace and all that jazz... simple really, your point of view tends to dictate your beliefs.
If the world really needs a imaginary friend to encourage them to be good people it raises the question of those peoples morals in the first place. So the all good God argument fails in validity by looking at it's followers lack of understanding their own intuition.
User avatar
Animew
Banter kitty
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:45 pm
Species: Animu cat

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#29

Post by Animew »

wow, you finally respond... and only to me! >w< i feel so speshl now!
Franky wrote:Firstly I'm not your friend
pfft, that's what you think.
Franky wrote:mainstream opinion? Maybe you didn't read this but this isn't a popular stance at all even among atheists who still make up the smaller percentage compared to the dominating popular ideologies.
hey i'm as surprised as you man, (Owo)\ last time i defended religion there was a flame war and science jihadist hounded me even by PM... i think i was banned too but that may have been something else.
Franky wrote:But since your bored to death here and resorting to RP talk and all caps expressing emotion why did you make such a big effort to reply at all?
er, i don’t get what your trying to convey here... RP talk? emotion? \(OwO)/ bitch that’s just how i talk.
also, what effort? i replied while stretching my legs after a lengthy period of pokemon playing (much like i am now)
Franky wrote:The context is in speech. I don't take offense when someone takes a stance opposing mine in verbal form. But your examples points to things which actually affects the wellbeing of individuals not whether their emotions get hurt by words but physically harms them.

It doesn't affect a non reader at all unlike the damaging things religion does and has done in society.
oh don’t give me that! people blowing up other people half way across the world doesn’t affect you or most of the people griping about religion, for you it’s just a convenient thing to point your finger at. so you getting offended by it is exactly the same as someone getting offended by shittalking.

if a priest comes over to your house and takes a dump on your rug in the name of god then sure you can complain about that priest and you may even be at liberty to complain about his rug dumping version of god but that’s no grounds to hate all religion everywhere... i mean what if someone crapped on your rug in the name of science or because aliens told them to do it? you going to up and hate all science?
Franky wrote:There are ways to do that without introducing the existence of a magical sky fairy. You are part of one of those things on this forum.
yea and you know there are ways to do that without dressing up as animals and going to conventions yet we do that anyway... what’s your point? that magical sky fairies are inferior to the plethora of other crap people do to bond as a community? that's just your opinion man, for all the negative points you can come up with about what other people do they can probably do the same about what you do so don’t be so judgmental bro... tiz not cool.
Franky wrote:There is no statistic which proves a higher percentage of people inside the furry fandom does the things you exclaim than outside of it. There is however mountains of evidence proving a large portion of terrorist attacks having religion at its foundation.
lol! i find that argument incredibly stupid. statistics only exist once someone does a study, right... if someone doesn’t do a study on something? what, it just stops existing?
not to mention the fact that the people that are doing these studies often stand to gain from an outcome... how incredibly naive do you have to be to base your personal beliefs and opinions on a trail mix of statistics thrown together by people who obviously have an interest in swaying your opinion?
Franky wrote:Except I am not a racist sexist homophobe or whatever. Though many religions yet again teaches it's followers to be.
and many don’t... what’s your point? bigotry is not exclusive to religious groups. But by your intolerance of religion you are undeniably being a bigot, putting you squarely in that shelf next to the racists sexists homophobes or whatevers.
Franky wrote:Referring to me as an extremist suggest I'd strap a bomb around myself to kill believers. No. A civilised person wouldn't do this. Only a indoctrinated delusional person or psychopath would.
*slow clap* yea... exactly, and those are again not exclusive to religion. indoctrination and delusion was never copyrighted by the church or any other institution.
Franky wrote:Comparing me a person debating the subject with a deluded individual killing people for his faith in a magic sky fairy is digging for a point you won't get among a civilised debate.
lol, then why did you do it?
Franky wrote:Whenever poor mister scientists discovers something fraud and pseudoscience schemers jumped on the concepts as if they where in heat and actually making huge success at selling these products which is nothing but nonsense.
yup... just like they did with poor mister monk trying to discover enlightenment in his little cave.
Franky wrote:It's easy to sell people stuff they don't understand. Including answers like what their purpose is and what it'll be like after your dead. Does this ring any bells?
(/<w<)/ yea, just like pharmaceuticals... but since you understand this concept why is it so hard for you to see that religion is not the problem here, it’s the people capitalizing on peoples ignorance.
Franky wrote:If the world really needs a imaginary friend to encourage them to be good people it raises the question of those peoples morals in the first place.
i know right, but again it’s just one of many ways to do that and deciding which approach works better is just a matter of personal preference. what people use as their moral compass should be up to them don’t you think?
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
User avatar
Raynar
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:10 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Wolf
Region: Gauteng

Re: Atheism vs Antitheism

#30

Post by Raynar »

Hmmm, I'm going to be hated, but that's why we need a Secular one world order, so that religions are nothing more than clubs, like a book club or country club. Those don't have political power and neither shall religion have any political power in a secular one world order.
Post Reply