Debate! Live, Raw and Uncut!

[Animew]

Given that the one very often leads to the other

that’s dangerous thinking, keep on that train of thought and you'll see it banning pornography because that "very often leads" to sexual deviance.
why not simply enforce RULES and deal with people as people?

Not once did I mention punishment in the context of forum drama (only in the context of saying stupid things in general - and such "punishment" was your reputation suffering). I mentioned criticism. Also, asking someone why they said something does not mean that you do not criticize them thereafter.

so by saying "only in the context of..." you null "Not once did I mention..." you see what happens when you nitpick words and meanings? you start tripping over your own words... so i kindly ask you not to do that, weather you said "punishment" or "criticize" is irrelevant. the point is when you respond in a hostile way to something you perceive to be hostile, the response you get will almost always be hostile so you potentially start a confrontation out of a misunderstanding or you aggravate a situation.

by finding out the source of malcontent you can better diffuse the situation... whether you for some reason thereafter feel like "criticizing" the person or not. again you are over analyzing... just read my words as they are please.

As if the implicit meaning were not there.

NYAHAHA! oh sure here we go, completely ignore my words and go with the "implicit meaning"...
you do realize that's like talking to someone but making up everything he says yourself right?

you yourself admit that complaining does not do much. So why begin to complain or attack other users in the first place? Your logic seems to be self-defeating: "Do not complain about users that complain or attack other users that attack. It accomplishes nothing." Why only apply that reasoning to those who react, and not to those who cause it in the first place?

woh! hold up there bud, again you over analyze a simple sentence... "complaining about it ain’t going to do much good now is it?" as i have said before: " merely stating facts as i understand it, not making accusations as you seem to believe." in other words i merely said "complaining about it ain’t going to do much good."
i did not say: "Do not complain about users that complain or attack other users that attack. It accomplishes nothing." what i in fact said was: "complaining about it ain’t going to do much good."

... i can continue but i'm hoping you are now clear on what i actually said...

[Galahad]

that’s dangerous thinking, keep on that train of thought and you'll see it banning pornography because that "very often leads" to sexual deviance.

... What?

That is one big straw man fallacy. That is a completely different subject with completely different proofs and arguments.

so by saying "only in the context of..." you null "Not once did I mention..." you see what happens when you nitpick words and meanings? you start tripping over your own words

Did you read my whole sentence? I said "not once did I mention punishment in the context of forum drama". Not "not once did I mention punishment", period. I find this ironic coming from someone who asks me to take his words exactly as they are.

woh! hold up there bud, again you over analyze a simple sentence...

It seems you say that every time I attempt to explain why your logic does not work. I apply your logic - complaining about "it" (i.e drama caused by other users) accomplishes nothing - and apply it to the very scenario we are talking about - oversensitive and immature users creating drama - and show why your logic is inconsistent.

My impression of your logic has been this: People suffer from circumstances and may lash out, be oversensitive or act immaturely because of mood swings caused by their circumstances, and it would be wrong to punish them, be aggressive towards them or treat them unkindly. Instead, understand them.

The flaw I've been pointing to is this: This restricts only those who react towards them. It imposes nothing on those who initially lash out - in essence, they can be aggressive without having aggression shown in return, purely on the basis that something bad happened to them.

To summarize it as simply as I can: You can be an asshole whenever you are feeling stressed, and expect to be understood rather than rebuked for being an asshole.
I agree with you in that they should be understood (hence why I earlier said that "asking why does not mean not criticizing thereafter"), but I believe they should be criticized and rebuked for causing harm in expressing their anger.

[Animew]

That is one big straw man fallacy. That is a completely different subject with completely different proofs and arguments.

lol, straw man phalluses...no... it simply means that when you start judging on basis of "one very often leads to the other" you are prone to persecute a large degree of false positives, ya dig? especially when you base your cause and effect mentality on assumptions you have made from your own personal observations...

Did you read my whole sentence? I said "not once did I mention punishment in the context of forum drama". Not "not once did I mention punishment", period. I find this ironic coming from someone who asks me to take his words exactly as they are.

Yes, i read your entire sentence, did you? i merely did not see the need to quote the entire thing seeing as i figured you were familiar with it in its entirety being the author of said sentence (hence the "...". when it’s in ", that generally means the sentence continues in case you were wondering.) but very well: "Not once did I mention punishment in the context of forum drama (only in the context of saying stupid things in general - and such "punishment" was your reputation suffering). I mentioned criticism."

"and such "punishment" was your reputation suffering"<- see how that part contradicts this part? -> "Not once did I mention punishment in the context of forum drama"
last i checked saying stupid things and having your reputation suffering because of it is indeed part of forum drama.

It seems you say that every time I attempt to explain why your logic does not work.

…
seriously? well no shit hey... perhaps it’s because i was not giving you my "logic", i was giving words... words that say simple things... in simple English. yet you keep trying to construct some huge elaborate "secret message" from my simple words.

I apply your logic - complaining about "it" (i.e drama caused by other users) accomplishes nothing - and apply it to the very scenario we are talking about - oversensitive and immature users creating drama - and show why your logic is inconsistent.

My impression of your logic has been this: People suffer from circumstances and may lash out, be oversensitive or act immaturely because of mood swings caused by their circumstances, and it would be wrong to punish them, be aggressive towards them or treat them unkindly. Instead, understand them.

The flaw I've been pointing to is this: This restricts only those who react towards them. It imposes nothing on those who initially lash out - in essence, they can be aggressive without having aggression shown in return, purely on the basis that something bad happened to them.

To summarize it as simply as I can: You can be an asshole whenever you are feeling stressed, and expect to be understood rather than rebuked for being an asshole.
I agree with you in that they should be understood (hence why I earlier said that "asking why does not mean not criticizing thereafter"), but I believe they should be criticized and rebuked for causing harm in expressing their anger.

wow, all that from: "it’s just mood swings man... complaining about it ain’t going to do much good now is it?" hey?
why do you even bother to talk to people if you're going to make up responses to your own words that are even more complicated than what people can come up with? you do me far too much credit bra. when i said: "t’s just mood swings man... complaining about it ain’t going to do much good now is it?"
i did in fact mean *drum roll*
"PENUT BUTTER JELLEH!"
lol, just kidding. i meant: "t’s just mood swings man... complaining about it ain’t going to do much good now is it?"
…
you know... as in, Fluctuations of moods?... and complaining about it does little to change anything?...

if you want my "opinion" on your "analysis" of "my thinking" i'll just go ahead and correct you on a few key points:
"You can be an asshole whenever you are feeling stressed, and expect to be understood rather than rebuked for being an asshole."
when you are being an asshole there is usually a reason why you are being an asshole so when someone asks what's wrong, (instead of just being an asshole in return to your assholeness) you are in fact less likely to be an asshole some more as where you are very likely going to be a bigger asshole when someone responds to you as an asshole.
that make sense?

[Galahad]

it simply means that when you start judging on basis of "one very often leads to the other" you are prone to persecute a large degree of false positives, ya dig? especially when you base your cause and effect mentality on assumptions you have made from your own personal observations...

That would be true only if my 'sample size' of observations were very limited. But that is not the case.

If one thing occurs almost always in the presence of the other and is seen to do across multiple observations with different environments, it is possible and very likely the two are linked. Basic logic. And, though it is more subjective, this logic can be extended to forum drama: hurt feelings, immaturity, and oversensitivity were almost always found side-by-side with aggression (regardless of the identities of the users and the specific issues they had): if you wish to see proof, there are multiple threads in the 'venting and support' board and even the 'announcements' board. When furries on this board become, as we call it, 'immature' and 'oversensitive', attacks on other users to varying degrees happen in the overwhelming majority of such cases. So, I draw the link, and address them as being related.

"and such "punishment" was your reputation suffering"<- see how that part contradicts this part? -> "Not once did I mention punishment in the context of forum drama"
last i checked saying stupid things and having your reputation suffering because of it is indeed part of forum drama

It appears you are confusing the two "punishments" that were being talked about.
The 'punishment' in that your reputation suffers is passive. No-one punishes you. You inadvertently punish yourself by saying something stupid. (See my original post.)
The 'punishment' you and Leeward were talking about is other users actively punishing that user for saying something stupid. Attacking the user for something he or she said or did.

The two are clearly different.

perhaps it’s because i was not giving you my "logic", i was giving words... words that say simple things... in simple English. yet you keep trying to construct some huge elaborate "secret message" from my simple words.

This is a debate. The whole point is to address logic and points made. You also contradict yourself here: you say you are not giving me your 'logic', but then go on to say you give "words that say simple things" - those simple 'things' are your logic, and I am demonstrating that, while I agree with it to an extent, that it is not enough.

when you are being an asshole there is usually a reason why you are being an asshole so when someone asks what's wrong, (instead of just being an asshole in return to your assholeness) you are in fact less likely to be an asshole some more as where you are very likely going to be a bigger asshole when someone responds to you as an asshole.

I agree. And I would be willing to do this for the few who are under exceptional stress due to their circumstances and are genuinely unable to control themselves. Nonetheless, that is in the minority. For the average person, there is no justification for being an asshole, as I have said times before. Even if, to quote you, there is a "reason why you are being an asshole" - having a bad day, a mood swing, or so on. So, how about not being an asshole in the first place and venting in a way people understand and are more likely to support? In that way, everyone benefits: you are more likely to be helped and get it off your chest, and others are more likely to want to help you in the future and are less likely to be offended or hurt. And to achieve this all it takes is self-control. I doubt that is too much to ask.

[Cape_F0X]

[Galahad]

Though Cape may possibly have missed that this is a rather civil debate, I guess it is becoming a bit circular and stale. Not to mention off-topic. If you wish, Animew, we can talk via a PM. Otherwise, I think it might be best to leave it at that.

[Cape_F0X]

Though Cape may possibly have missed that this is a rather civil debate, I guess it is becoming a bit circular and stale.

Didn't miss it. Just wanted you guys to lighten up, which means you have guessed correctly.

[Animew]

NYAHAHA! <w< well played cape_fox. i was starting to think the same thing.

sir Galahad, it seems we are at that point where we spend more time discussing our discussion than the actual topic so i'm guessing we rather let the other kids play now. even if we continue this via PM (OwO and trust me i would love to) we probably won’t reach a conclusion along our current line of debate.

<w< you and i should totes start a debate about "science versus religion"

[Cape_F0X]

Well played Cape_F0X.

Thanks. I try my best.

The perfect ending would be if this topic to get locked for a random reason.

[Animew]

The perfect ending would be if this topic to get locked for a random reason.

we all saw it coming but it never happened... probably BECAUSE we all expected it.