ideas and suggestions on how to discuss controversial topics.

[Animew]

right, i'm sure we all enjoy discussing things honestly and openly without having to fear judgment and being ostracized by others for our opinions. but let’s face it, some people will always take the internet too seriously and think that whatever you say online is concrete proof of their own assumptions about you.

SO, i ask you this: how can we create an environment either onsite or offsite where we can discuss topics without having to fear that someone will use the discussion outside the thread against a participant or even alleged participant to the thread?

there are a lot of really intelligent individuals on this website so i am sure a solution can be found.

as for an idea from me: at some point on deviant art you could create a chatroom and have people join the discussion by sharing the link to the chatroom. it would of course be better if people could pic their handle each time they join the chatroom tho so i doubt DA would be suitable. however i am sure there are places on the web that this can be done.

[Randall]

Short answer, it ain't going to work.
The Morality Police have won, and their numbers grow every day.

[Fluke]

This is clearly related to a thread recently where posts were deleted about a topic, and administrators told people to stop posting about it.

I will re-iterate my point in that thread: this is their forum - therefore abide by their rules. It isn't your right to be a part of this forum, it is a privilege. Many people seem to forget that. If the people in charge do not want X on their own website - I would refrain from posting X.

[Animew]

The Morality Police have won.

hehe, they only win if you let them. as long as you retain your open mind, they lose.

This is clearly related to a thread recently where posts were deleted about a topic, and administrators told people to stop posting about it.

and you are clearly making assumptions. let me re-iterate my point in THIS thread. stop assuming things based on what you read in unrelated places. this thread is about sharing ideas to create a safe place to discuss topics of a controversial matter. the topics themselves was not specified in THIS thread so please stop pretending they were.
i find it amusing that you would drag another thread into this one when the point of this thread is to find a way this can be avoided. thank you for proving my point.

[Valerion]

Every topic is detestable to someone, especially known controversial ones. You should make sure that everyone that is invited into the topic is willing to discuss it calmly. Problem is, then you run the risk of creating an echo chamber,and then you can't get fresh views. Consider that aspect carefully.

IRC channel? Create and delete them as needed. Can even be protected with a key. Very anonymous - if the server obscures your IP. Or use a VPN perhaps.
Invite-only WhatsApp/Telegram/Skype group? Much less anonymous.

[Randall]

I understand the whole reasoning behind the forum owners and their fears.

There is only one thing for it. Identify people of similarly open-mind and talk to them, privately. Best solution ever.
These days the internet is fast becoming a listening device for the MINILUV, we all know this, gods know I know it for sure.

[Animew]

Every topic is detestable to someone, especially known controversial ones. You should make sure that everyone that is invited into the topic is willing to discuss it calmly. Problem is, then you run the risk of creating an echo chamber,and then you can't get fresh views. Consider that aspect carefully.

IRC channel? Create and delete them as needed. Can even be protected with a key. Very anonymous - if the server obscures your IP. Or use a VPN perhaps.
Invite-only WhatsApp/Telegram/Skype group? Much less anonymous.

this is so very true, but not necessarily a bad thing. i'd actually love to hear why they think it’s so despicable in the first place. also as you say, the key lay in the selection of invites. the only way i can think of getting a good balance of participants for any given topic is to manually go around asking people their opinions on the subject and if they don’t give too extreme a reaction you can give them an invite. tiz going to be a real pain in the butt to ask all the people individually tho. i suppose i can ask for volunteers to PM me, but it’s quite likely that merely announcing the discussion will cause drama wherever i announce it so i duno if that would work.
i'm pretty impartial on most controversial topics myself so i should be able to get a good mix with manual screening methinks.

I was kinda thinking IRC but I don’t really know a lot about it. O_o i just draw stuff for a living after all so all these internet doo-hickies are beyond me. however I did find a website thathosts free disposable chat rooms. They can be password protected and as far as I know you don’t need an account to post stuff in them <_< not really sure how that works tho, they might ask for an email address or something silly like that… I’d have to look into that I guess, but apparently you can use a tor n stuff on there so as long as they don’t ask for an email address it should be pretty anonymous.

I understand the whole reasoning behind the forum owners and their fears.

There is only one thing for it. Identify people of similarly open-mind and talk to them, privately. Best solution ever.
These days the internet is fast becoming a listening device for the MINILUV, we all know this, gods know I know it for sure.

O_o that and legal implications. some of the more unlawful topics can get the place in trouble so it really can’t be discussed here for those reasons in addition to the drama it can cause.
the problem with just gathering up likeminded folks is that it will probably end up as an echo chamber, like valerion mentioned. the point is to gather up people of conflicting opinions and having them share those opinions so both parties can hear out each other’s reasoning and hence reevaluate their own. Well, tiz what i'm hoping for anyway...

O_o wuza miniluf? you mean those tasty buns they sell at KFC?

[Randall]

O_o wuza miniluf? you mean those tasty buns they sell at KFC?

Read this, the term is defined in this book

[Animew]

ah ok... when i googled it, it only showed me pictures of fancy stainless steel butt plugs so it had me slightly confused for a moment there...

[Sev]

Every topic is detestable to someone, especially known controversial ones. You should make sure that everyone that is invited into the topic is willing to discuss it calmly. Problem is, then you run the risk of creating an echo chamber,and then you can't get fresh views. Consider that aspect carefully.

IRC channel? Create and delete them as needed. Can even be protected with a key. Very anonymous - if the server obscures your IP. Or use a VPN perhaps.
Invite-only WhatsApp/Telegram/Skype group? Much less anonymous.

Welcome to Reddit, where the system of voting has forced people to say popular things or be quashed.

[jacojerb]

Thank you for this thread, Animew! I'd love to help discuss controversial topics with you

I know I tend to discuss controversial topics often, and I do it not because I want people to agree with me, but because I want to hear why people feel the way they do about said topics. I think a lot about morality and such, and one of the main parts of my morality is "if noone gets negatively influenced by it, it can't be considered wrong"... A lot of people argue things, saying it's wrong, without giving reasons why it's wrong... I honestly just want fair debates about such controversial topics

The problem, I've found, with making it completely anonymous, is that it turns a lot of people into trolls. Plus being a nameless voice does tend to make people think less about your arguments. But this is something I've learned from Omegle and such. Maybe other people are more mature than that?

[Tocs]

Okay I would just like to add my two cents about this. I honestly just don't understand some people (not all) pressing the issue so so much. Yes, sometimes discussing controversial conversations are extremely interesting, and can lead to some very topical debates, however the discussion of something illegal acts such as those discussed in the last thread should not happen in this forum. Even if the discussion of something illegal isn't illegal, it is still associated with that, and a small thing such as association, even if out of context, can lead to some serious legality Issues. (If you were, for example, caught with friends while they are smoking questionable illegal things, you will still be arrested even if you are not actually smoking with them). It is the rules of the forum and whether or not you deem the rule as retarded or perfectly fine, the point is it is a rule, and thus must be followed to keep the overall peace of each and everyone of us. You won't go write out a 13 page essay about how stupid the rule is at someone's house when asked to take your shoes off when you don't do it at yours and how you feel obliged to wear your shoes wherever you want, it is their rule. And that is that.

[Randall]

I have no idea what Social media is really like, primarily because I knew long ago that its best avoided. Turns out my gut feel was right. I have never had Twitface, I had BookFace for a short period 6 years ago, and I still don't know WTF Reddit is all about. I am particularly wary of BookFace.

Its their forum, their rules unfortunately. I do see it from their standpoint. Its a pretty fucked up world we live in nowadays, compounded by the fact that we have stupid people out there that IMHO should not be allowed near a computer, never mind bloody social media. You have these numpties who believe everything they read and cannot make a judgement call, and then you have them being propped up by Social Justice Warriors (SJWs).

As a nickname on a forum, you have at least one layer of anonymity. For the forum owners, whose details, address, etc appears on the WHOIS of the domains and infrastructure, its them, NOT YOU, that the thought police/governments will go after.

Well, what do I think?
I do think that unfortunately the forum admin is right, he is looking after his interests and the forum. It is not his fault we live in the new world order.
He could have, however been a bit more diplomatic about it.

[Hargan]

My personal view is thusly: How to handle controversial topics:

1- Act with reason and logic: Cite sources, handle things with facts rather than full based opinions with opinions being remarked as such, and don't let it get to you
2- Don't let it get to you: The topic is controversial. You have your points. The next person has theirs. The third has theirs. Their points are not attacks on you. Their points are their opinions and valid facts against your argument. Not you. It's not about you. Don't let it get to you.
3- When forming arguments against another's argument, act against their argument. Not them. It's not about them, it's about their argument. Don't make it about them, keep it about the topic.

In short, rationalise it and use logic.

Sources cited: Events that can be found on this forum, and threads that no longer can be found, wherein I've had to realise that I'm in the wrong, that the argument isn't about me or them, and that taking things calmly and rationally leads to arguments that are both civil, constructive and much more persuasive than:
You're a doody head
Well, you're a poopy face
etc

Yes, I'm not perfect. I get emotional too. And if you keep proving me wrong when I'm in that state, I eventually do calm down, analyse things critically and come back to rationality. No one is perfect.

But the point is to at least try to be rational.

And remember the golden rules: It's not an attack on you, and don't make it an attack on someone else.

That's how you can discuss any topic.

Also, remember: Agreeing to disagree is a valid option at the end of the day.

[Galahad]

These days the internet is fast becoming a listening device for the MINILUV, we all know this, gods know I know it for sure.

As a nickname on a forum, you have at least one layer of anonymity. For the forum owners, whose details, address, etc appears on the WHOIS of the domains and infrastructure, its them, NOT YOU, that the thought police/governments will go after.

It is not his fault we live in the new world order.

(Yes, this is a joke.)

On a serious note: If privacy and anonymity are the foremost concerns when it comes to discussions and debates centered around controversial topics, then why not simply use the forum's private messaging service, Skype, Telegram, WhatsApp, or any other form of private person-to-person communication? Yes, these methods may be monitored by third-party software (almost always by the parent company or government), but, does that truly matter? Discussion of such topics is not what is legally prohibited; it is the committing or doing of them that is. Also, privacy is desirable mostly because of how it affects other forum users, and the negative impressions they may gain of that person's character. (E.g: "Hey, Person A! I was reading this debate that Person B was involved in, about topic C. Did you know Person B supports the legalization of topic C? What a monster!") Hence, in my personal opinion, the degree of privacy should only be sufficient so that other forum users, mostly guests, may not happen upon it.

[Randall]

I don't think privacy is such an issue here.
For what its worth, reading ANYONE's private messages, is a SQL DB query away!

I also feel little risk chatting here... that said however, I do understand the need for privacy and I think the forum does OK with that.

The key issue here is the discussion of controversial topics. That is the issue at hand.

There are a number of topics that do not fare well, and unfortunately cause emotions to run high. I am mature enough to debate them, not to take offence, unfortunately most aren't that well equipped.
Many people are indoctrinated (and yes that was a deliberate choice of word) to be extremely offended by such topics and go full retard when such things are discussed.

My position remains the same, keep it off the forum, or for the very most part, keep it members only, so that Google cannot index it, etc.. like you do with the yiffy stuff.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Keeping something members only does not help if members are part of the problem.

[Randall]

Well that's fortunately not my problem to solve.

[Galahad]

Keeping something members only does not help if members are part of the problem.

Perhaps we can make that more specific. For example, which members tend to be part of the problem? Is it those who are offended by the topic itself? Is it those involved in the debate itself who use what is said as ammunition to defame the character of their opponent?

[Splicer-Fox]

I am not sure what happened.

But my intention for the topic was to have more scientific explanations about forms of sexual behavior and where they come form.
There are allot of conflicting and politically skewed explanations of why someone is gay or some sort of -phile.
I thought it might be interesting to ask for opinions and perhaps by chance get a revelation.

I am getting the impression people started talking about personal things that may or may not be legal?
That was not my intention, I just want to know how the brain works.

[Animew]

O_o oopsie! forgot i started a thread on here lol.

i honestly just want fair debates about such controversial topics
The problem, I've found, with making it completely anonymous, is that it turns a lot of people into trolls. Plus being a nameless voice does tend to make people think less about your arguments. But this is something I've learned from Omegle and such. Maybe other people are more mature than that?

if people feel comfortable giving their real identities for the sake of credibility then that should be fine. folks will probably recognize the more active members like someone mentioned already but with anonymity you will have plausible deniability.

I honestly just don't understand some people (not all) pressing the issue so so much..

Tocs, in some places being gay is illegal. does that mean gay people should just instantly "stop being gay, end of discussion" because it’s against the law?
something being law does NOT make it right by default. when the law dictates what we may and may not discuss privately, you know something has gone terribly wrong.

now let me just clarify: i have no issue with the rules of the forum nor with the decisions of the administration. as Valerion mentioned, people have been ostracized and discriminated against based on things they said on controversial topics in the past, because some would assume those words to carry greater meaning in the personal lives of those that said them regardless of the truth. i have extensive experience with this myself as i have been accused of doing things based solely on the kind of art i draw for a living. O_o heck, people have even tried to kill me for these sorts of things.
and hence this discussion here aims to find a way we can discuss controversial topics safely and without problems. (not on THIS particular forum because it’s already been extensively established that this is out of the question.)

Well, what do I think?
I do think that unfortunately the forum admin is right, he is looking after his interests and the forum. It is not his fault we live in the new world order.
He could have, however been a bit more diplomatic about it.

O_o why is everyone assuming i'm just being rebellious against the admin!? <_< ok never mind, don’t answer that.
but i'm really not. i actually agree with the forum rules on these sorts of things. the rules are there for peoples own protection. i've seen how folks gang up on someone when they are suspected of being something based on stuff he says on a forum.
hehe, also he was plenty diplomatic about it. i know the rules, i shouldn’t have carried on the topic.

Also, remember: Agreeing to disagree is a valid option at the end of the day.

NO! it’s a lazy way of giving up! keep verbattling till you win the internet!
lol, just kidding. the problem seems to be in how strongly people feel about their opinions. O_o when someone thinks they’re right no matter what, they get pretty angry if you dare question them.

Hence, in my personal opinion, the degree of privacy should only be sufficient so that other forum users, mostly guests, may not happen upon it.

i agree but in this case the people participating will probably be from this ZA furies. a person to person debate would be all nice and dandy but i wana discuss stuff with many furs with lots of opinions. ^_^" that way i can actually choose a side and not just take the opposite of the person i'm debating with.

My position remains the same, keep it off the forum, or for the very most part, keep it members only, so that Google cannot index it, etc.. like you do with the yiffy stuff.

the problem with members only is the screening. >_< it’s gonna be a pain in the butt screening people and then someone can just sneak in and cause a commotion.
<w< also... bro! you are just as paranoid as me! we should totes exchange conspiracy theories some time.

Is it those involved in the debate itself who use what is said as ammunition to defame the character of their opponent?

yup! those are the ones who are the problem... the thread’s content should remain relevant ONLY in the thread itself and not get dragged out of context.

I am getting the impression people started talking about personal things that may or may not be legal?
That was not my intention, I just want to know how the brain works.

lol, intention rarely factors into the outcome round here bro.
but that’s my point, we can’t even begin to explore or understand the mind if we are burdened by the judgments of others. how can anyone give their honest opinion if they are scared that it will be used against them outside of the discussion?
meh and it’s not like any understanding can be found in censored opinions.
so c’mon, help me think of a way we can have discussions without causing a huge cascade of drama?

[Tocs]

That was not the point I had to make. My point is that the forums does have rules it needs to follow, and although I am perfectly fine with discussing such topics, it is like val said, it does not show a good image for the forums and personally I do not believe that people would want to be associated with the discussion of such things especially if it's illegal in their own country and the fact that anyone can actually view the forum, if you walk into a room full of people who you've never met before and they are talking about taking drugs, you will automatically assume that they have done this illegal act before and thus immediately put a sense of negative image in your mind and also may lead to a misunderstanding of the situation on your behalf, thus a bunch of consequences happening that shouldn't have to happen. Yes of course not everyone is like that but some people are. (And yes I know I'm repeating myself and I know you understand that but I guess that I felt like repeating what I had to say) and yes, anyone should be able to discuss anything privately but this is not a private setting.

Anyhow, now that I've made my stance clear on that issue here's to answer your question. Quite frankly as much as I know that your intentions are good and all, it is something which is very difficult, if not a possibility to pull off. As soon as one starts basing what other people's reactions would be on your own values, morals and views, and they pose a different view, you're in the wrong. To go into such things an open mind must be acquired. You need to try see from every perspective, and for some that's a difficult concept to grasp. Everyone is different it's what makes the world interesting after all.

[jacojerb]

Is it really that unusual, even unheard of, to defend something you're not personally a part of?

Saying "let people who want to use drugs, use drugs, as long as they're not hurting anyone" doesn't mean I do drugs... (I hope using an illegal topic as an example in a discussion doesn't count as discussing an illegal topic and go against forum rules)...

Saying "I support abortion" doesn't mean I'd get an abortion... I can't get one, being male and all

I understand, on the forum, not being able to discuss such things. But just in general? Talking is good...

[Cape_F0X]

On the forum and in general a lot of people follow this rule;

"Don't start nothing, won't be nothing"

(terrible English, but that's the quote)
That's why taboo topic are avoided. We don't what to start anything negative unintentionally. There are other places to start things or leave well enough alone.

[Valerion]

Some topics are taboo, as a result of the way society perceives things. The ones that started this thread falls in that category.
There are some where just discussing the topic, whether you agree with it or not, completely taints you in the eyes of society.
There are some topics which are so controversial, they have caused deep rifts and divisions in this same fandom we are in, to the point where a large site like FA had to concede to the demands of the vocal group. The people were ready to sacrifice all the gains the fandom had made, just to get their side acceded to.

This is why it was banned on this forum. It's not a discussion I want to touch with a pole of any length, 10 feet or otherwise. This is completely independent of my own personal views on the matter, which doesn't feature here, one way or another.

[Animew]

stuff that makes sense v2.0

hmm, not really sure what you are trying to convey but what you say makes sense. it's kinda for those exact reasons you mentioned that i want to find a way to discuss issues in a safe manner where none of that bad stuff will happen. and i mean it’s not just illegal topics... people were all like "GASP! you are a filthy zealous CHRISTIAN! how dare you defend creationism!" when i merely tried pointing out how the manner in which they were portraying science was practically identical to most religions... and even in a gaming thread the religious thing was thrown in my face.
SO: i ask you... Tocs. how can we the people that want intellectual discussion to be conducted with civility, discuss things without having to worry about someone telling our parents that we are criminals because we questioned the rationale of the law?

Is it really that unusual, even unheard of, to defend something you're not personally a part of?

O_o apparently yes... yes it is that unusual/unheard of. now i can say "too bad, that’s just how it is" or i can say " i don’t care, i'll keep doing it MYSELF till the rest of the world catches up."
making assumptions about labels seem to be the pastime of this age... don’t let it get you down bro.

On the forum and in general a lot of people follow this rule;

"Don't start nothing, won't be nothing"

(terrible English, but that's the quote)
That's why taboo topic are avoided. We don't what to start anything negative unintentionally. There are other places to start things or leave well enough alone.

lol, what’s the point of a forum if nothing ever gets discussed? <_< well, besides the twitteresqe announcement of things...
to strip down the apparent sagely wisdom of double negatives i'll translate: do not start something, and there will be nothing"
are you really fine with nothing?
in your closing statement you mention "other places" for starting stuff right? this is exactly what this thread is about. finding the right other place to start stuff. only reason i'm discussing it round here is because some folks round here may be interested in joining in when i start something someplace else, i also would like their advice on where a good place is to start something someplace else.

Some topics are taboo, as a result of the way society perceives things. The ones that started this thread falls in that category.
There are some where just discussing the topic, whether you agree with it or not, completely taints you in the eyes of society.
There are some topics which are so controversial, they have caused deep rifts and divisions in this same fandom we are in, to the point where a large site like FA had to concede to the demands of the vocal group. The people were ready to sacrifice all the gains the fandom had made, just to get their side acceded to.

This is why it was banned on this forum. It's not a discussion I want to touch with a pole of any length, 10 feet or otherwise. This is completely independent of my own personal views on the matter, which doesn't feature here, one way or another.

and THAT is why people keep hacking FA... lol, just kidding. but this is exactly why we could really use an anonymous platform where people can safely discuss things without getting labels stuck on them.
there will always be that vocal group that forces their will and opinion by the power of their numbers. <_< sorta one of the reasons democracy is bullshit but i digress.

[Tocs]

As much as I'd like to give an answer in my mind it is simply an impossibility for it to happen. There is always someone that will disagree with you no matter what is said, but there will also be people that agree with you. There Is always going to be someone that is narrow minded and those who are open to talking about the idea . I think what I'm trying to say is that pretty much you have to pick the people you have these discussions with, for example I can go on and have a 4 hours conversation with raven or badge about paranormal stuff yet some people I simply can't, they will see it as worshiping the devil if I believe in paranormal stuff (and yes I've got that comment before). Also timing and place is an external factor for such conversations. It's a really tricky thing to properly figure out and it's fascinating to me seeing the different eactions from people. But anyhow, main point: pick the people you have certain conversations with as not everyone will be open to some topics

[Animew]

As much as I'd like to give an answer in my mind it is simply an impossibility for it to happen. There is always someone that will disagree with you no matter what is said, but there will also be people that agree with you. There Is always going to be someone that is narrow minded and those who are open to talking about the idea . I think what I'm trying to say is that pretty much you have to pick the people you have these discussions with, for example I can go on and have a 4 hours conversation with raven or badge about paranormal stuff yet some people I simply can't, they will see it as worshiping the devil if I believe in paranormal stuff (and yes I've got that comment before). Also timing and place is an external factor for such conversations. It's a really tricky thing to properly figure out and it's fascinating to me seeing the different eactions from people. But anyhow, main point: pick the people you have certain conversations with as not everyone will be open to some topics

NAH, nothing is impossible Tocsy! so far i figure i'll announce that i'm planning to host a discussion on a topic and that i'm looking for folks to debate said topic. then people contact me privately and even anonymously with a short summary of their opinions on the topic. i'll screen out the people who seem insincere and or dangerously insane then once there is a good mix of opinions i'll send all the people that are not nutsoid a link and a password for an anonymous chatroom. i'll post an opening opinion for people to get into it and hopefully the place livens up. once the discussion simmers down to a conclusion i will censor out all the potentially identifying stuff and make the discussion public in the form of a .TXT document so outsiders can review it and think on it. AND THEN, PROGRESS! Also it will rile up the next batch of debaters. Perhaps someday folks will even REQUEST I host certain topics.

Now, there are probably stuff I’m not thinking about so opinions are still very welcome.

[northernicebear]

As much as I'd like to give an answer in my mind it is simply an impossibility for it to happen. There is always someone that will disagree with you no matter what is said, but there will also be people that agree with you. There Is always going to be someone that is narrow minded and those who are open to talking about the idea . I think what I'm trying to say is that pretty much you have to pick the people you have these discussions with, for example I can go on and have a 4 hours conversation with raven or badge about paranormal stuff yet some people I simply can't, they will see it as worshiping the devil if I believe in paranormal stuff (and yes I've got that comment before). Also timing and place is an external factor for such conversations. It's a really tricky thing to properly figure out and it's fascinating to me seeing the different eactions from people. But anyhow, main point: pick the people you have certain conversations with as not everyone will be open to some topics

NAH, nothing is impossible Tocsy! so far i figure i'll announce that i'm planning to host a discussion on a topic and that i'm looking for folks to debate said topic. then people contact me privately and even anonymously with a short summary of their opinions on the topic. i'll screen out the people who seem insincere and or dangerously insane then once there is a good mix of opinions i'll send all the people that are not nutsoid a link and a password for an anonymous chatroom. i'll post an opening opinion for people to get into it and hopefully the place livens up. once the discussion simmers down to a conclusion i will censor out all the potentially identifying stuff and make the discussion public in the form of a .TXT document so outsiders can review it and think on it. AND THEN, PROGRESS! Also it will rile up the next batch of debaters. Perhaps someday folks will even REQUEST I host certain topics.

Now, there are probably stuff I’m not thinking about so opinions are still very welcome.

XMPP and IRC have the bonus of being platform-agnostic (well, relatively), XMPP works with OTR, IRC can be used with a temporary VPN or on some networks your host can be masked if you login using SASL. Impossible? no. Improbable? most likely.

All of that out of the way, there is no topic that 100% free from people being 'nutsoid' about. People, more often than not, think that the internet gives them carte blanche to be dicks to others. I'd like to make the point that if any heavy/big claims are made, evidence is required (at least a citation from a reputable source, statistics with context). I have strong ties to one of the most diverse nations in Europe (France), there are several political and world views, sometimes they clash with chaotic results (e.g. Le Front National, Madame Le Pen, Paris Shootings). There are some people who will either: 1) argue ad infinitum for the sake of argument alone, 2) people who are ignorant and who wish to remain so.

As a cap point, I'd be interested in this, as someone who is very much an outsider in several senses. I tend to be (relatively) level-headed (just don't trash on the french too hard)

[Leeward]

I'd be keen for such a discussion.