Questions about the nature of sexuality

[Splicer-Fox]

So, if being homosexual is caused by a physical abnormality like genetics or hormones:
Does that mean that there could eventually be cure for it? (or at least some way to manage it?)

If being gay is not a choice does it apply to other sexual preferences?
Like pedophilia for instance?
Is it even possible to cure or manage something like that?

I find it hard to understand where biology and personality determine these things.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

First question: Historically I believe homosexuality was treated with chemical castration just as is sometimes done with sex offenders today. But that gets rid of all sexual desire.

Second question: Probably. It's why I hate people saying "gays were born that way" as if that's meaningful.

[Galahad]

We are truly going to tread into territory declared controversial by anyone with a sense of political correctness, not so?

Hence, before I continue, I must present a mandatory disclaimer: I am in no way against or contrary to any sexual orientation that makes one attracted to another human, irrespective of gender. In other words, I "have nothing against" those who identify as anything other than "straight". Though I was raised in a highly conservative religion which I have now rejected, I accept as friends like-minded individuals from any such orientation.

Now, to address the issue you raised.

It is a fallacy to assert that sexual orientation is strictly a choice. There is much evidence to suggest that there are underlying biological causes: for example, during development within the womb, a foetus (alternatively spelled "fetus") is exposed to a cocktail of different hormones that affect brain structure, with superficial correlations drawn to other parameters such as dexterity (lefthandedness or righthandedness), and such structural changes have been linked to sexual orientation. Hence, there is most certainly a hormonal and genetic basis. However, the statement that such individuals were simply "born that way" is also an oversimplification. As the American Psychological Association points out in THIS article, there is currently no clear consensus on what precisely determines orientation, only that it is a mixture of both nature and nurture.

Because of the complexity of this issue and a lack of consensus, I very much doubt, within the foreseeable future at least, that there will be devised a way in which one can simply change, or as you put it, "cure", one's sexual orientation. Studies have revealed that female sexuality is somewhat more fluid and dynamic than male sexuality, and hence it is presumably more "changeable", yet one must keep in mind the morals and ethics inherent to this discussion. Many societies are adopting a more liberal and progressive set of values, where gender and sexuality are more freely expressed. Such civilizations would be very reluctant, I believe, to pursue or even suggest changes in sexual orientation.

I would write more on the matter (specifically, to address the issue you rose about pedophilia), but I believe I have said enough in one post. I do not wish to overwhelm.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

However, the statement that such individuals were simply "born that way" is also an oversimplification.

My point was that that's a meaningless statement. Even if it were completely true it would tell us absolutely nothing about how such a person should be treated.

[Ryall]

Second question: Probably. It's why I hate people saying "gays were born that way" as if that's meaningful.

Rakuen, the point of that, "born this way," argument isn't to justify that homosexuality is morally permissible: that's what the, "it's not hurting anyone," argument is for.

It's just a defense against people who argue that homosexuality is a choice, and that heterosexuality is a better choice.

[Raven Song]

Oh look I never got around to responding to this.

So I remember a long time ago I read about these rodent experiments.
In short the rats were kept in cages - duh. 2 rats to begin with. When they bred and had a litter the litter wasn't removed. the space stayed the same, but the quantity of rats increased. Eventually the boy rats became homosexual to prevent overpopulation.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/researchAndExperti ... /rats.aspx

The one thing that the rats lacked was space. And as the population grew there were soon too many rats for each to have its own territory and this led to an increasing number of fights.

Unable to control the frequency of social contact, the rats became increasingly stressed. Males became aggressive and some formed gangs, attacking females and the young. Mothers neglected their infants, failing to construct proper nests and even abandoning or attacking their pups. One group of males isolated themselves from the community around them and became exclusively homosexual. Cannibalism began – first of the abandoned young, then of the victims of violence

I find this sort of experiment fascinating and one can see it multiple species, not just rats. It has been recorded in baboon and chimpanzee troops, and may very well be a clue to our own workings and why things are going the way they are.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

So humans are overcrowded and homosexuality is the first sign we're going to become cannibals and cause the collapse of civilisation? o.0

[jacojerb]

Very interesting topic. Controversial, but interesting

The experiment on the rats is very interesting. Though it can't be taken as evidence for any of our own behaviour, it is interesting


Back to the original question: is homosexuality a biological abnormality? I don't really know. It's impossible to measure the sexuality of a baby, obviously. By the time they're old enough to really have sexual interest, there's been enough external influences to make it really hard to determine if you were indeed born that way...

I, personally, don't think it is a purely genetic thing. Though, I should add, I have never done research on the subject. So even though I like talking like this, it is probably rubish...
I think it must be a mixture of both genetics and environmental influences while growing up. There are certain things that do make people more likely to turn out gay. I've seen that, the majority of gays I know didn't have very good relationships with their dads. I don't think this is coincidence (unless the coincidence is me knowing gays with lacking relationships with their dads... I honestly never did studies on this. Just something I noticed).


Next question: can it be cured?
It probably can, but not easily. It is a pretty big part of a persons personality. I'm sure, with enough encouragement (reward and punishment) any aspect of someone's personality can be changed. Though, if you do it on an unwilling person, they will rebel against the change. Which really won't make it easier. More likely, they'll just start disliking whatever reward you give them, and tolerate the punishment...

I honestly wish psychological experiments such as these were allowed... But yeah. Ethnics.

In any case, why bother changing it? Yes, a lot of people see it as bad, or even a sin.... Well, I guess if you see it as a sin, you will try to change it. But, well, your problem, not mine.

I think I'll research this subject some more. Once again, a lot of what I said is rubish. No need to point it out. I've read papers on similar subjects. For example, I've read that it has been found that sexuality can change over time. Someone can be straight now and gay in a few years, or vice versa. There have been tests on this. Also, bisexuality... yeah. But be it genetics or external influences... Something I never really researcged

[Raven Song]

So humans are overcrowded and homosexuality is the first sign we're going to become cannibals and cause the collapse of civilisation? o.0

Though it can't be taken as evidence for any of our own behaviour, it is interesting

Why not?

I don't see how there isn't a possibility that due to the increase in population, more and more human beings are "naturally" becoming homosexual. Without even realising it. Is it not possible that our brains are subconsciously changing? Homosexual individuals still retain a fair amount of "natural thought" (I don't know what else to call it) like wanting kids etc. but due to their relationship/sexual choice they cannot naturally have children.

Rakuen I think you take it too literally... I doubt we will revert to cannibalism - though murder could be the human equivalent... and when you look at the rise in murder rates globally in the last 100 years.

The increased rate of homosexuality is also seen in highly built up cities etc. where people are in close quarters with each other, and less so in ore rural populations such as the middle of Africa etc. For instance - People living in smaller towns/villages outside of London are less likely to identify as homosexual. People living in London are more likely to identify if they had the predisposition - please read that carefully - I'm not saying they just suddenly poof became gay I'm saying living in a larger city they came out.
Now that could be because they were oppressed or scared in their home towns...
OR it could be because of the whole subconscious living so fucking close to each other lets not fucking over populate this shit thing.
I'm not saying the rat theory is right. I'm saying it is a plausible and possible thing.

This actually intrigues me. I think I might try do some more studies into this...

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Well I do remember in Geography the teacher was talking about how all the men went to work in the mines and homosexual sex became common. Apparently a similar thing occurs in prisons, the army and, if some stories are to be believed, boarding houses. Maybe that's just opportunistic but who knows.

[jacojerb]

An experiment with rats can't be taken as evidence about ourselves. It can be an indication, and seeing as human experimentation isn't an option, it's the best we can get.

If overpopulation does lead to homosexuality... It's a very interesting development. It implies that people subconsciously, for the good of society and arguably going against their own well-being (being gay does have many cons, and few pros) become gay. It implies a lot about group mentality. That people would do something that's good for the group, without meaning to. Even wanting not to...

[Splicer-Fox]

Eventually the boy rats became homosexual to prevent overpopulation.

But not the girls?
I feel sorry for them.

In any case, why bother changing it?

What if it is a destructive fetish like pedophilia or masochism that can cause harm?
Are these things even happening in the same part of the brain?
Does this happen in nature as well?

[Raven Song]

[quote="jacojerb"]An experiment with rats can't be taken as evidence about ourselves. It can be an indication, and seeing as human experimentation isn't an option, it's the best we can get.
quote]

Then why do we experiment on rats for make up and medicine? Because rats are chemically (including the chemicals in their brains) and whatever similar to human beings.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Then why do we experiment on rats for make up and medicine? Because rats are chemically (including the chemicals in their brains) and whatever similar to human beings.

They are also very different in some respects and many people doubt the value of studies done on rats and mice because so few of them work for people. In fact sometimes things have completely the opposite effect.

[Galahad]

If overpopulation does lead to homosexuality... It's a very interesting development. It implies that people subconsciously, for the good of society and arguably going against their own well-being (being gay does have many cons, and few pros) become gay. It implies a lot about group mentality. That people would do something that's good for the group, without meaning to. Even wanting not to...

I would be hesitant to equate morality with sexual orientation, as I would imagine the two have almost no bearing on each other (as far as I am aware), mostly because it is very subjective. For example, I could argue that heterosexual people do what is "good for the group" as well by continuing to procreate and ensure there are future generations so that the species does not become extinct due to mortality rate exceeding birth rate. No-one should be painting any orientation in shades of morality, as inner "goodness" does not have much to do with the sex to which you are attracted, in general.

Also, to those arguing about the relevance of experimentation on rats to humans, please keep in mind the following excerpt from Raven's earlier post on the topic:

I find this sort of experiment fascinating and one can see it multiple species, not just rats. It has been recorded in baboon and chimpanzee troops, and may very well be a clue to our own workings and why things are going the way they are.

Though the link she provided appears to refer only to rats, if what Raven said is true, then the same trend may be found in species more closely related phylogenically to humans, such as chimpanzees. Of course, evidence will have to be provided to support that this trend is indeed observed in such species, too.

[jacojerb]

I meant solving the overpopulation problem by being homosexual. In that case, it is for the good of the group, by not further making the overpopulation problem worse

Of course, if too many turn out gay, it would not be good for the group

An experiment with rats can't be taken as evidence about ourselves. It can be an indication, and seeing as human experimentation isn't an option, it's the best we can get.
quote]

Then why do we experiment on rats for make up and medicine? Because rats are chemically (including the chemicals in their brains) and whatever similar to human beings.

I really wish human experimentation was somehow possible. For chemical tests, I wish they'd use prisoners sceduled for execution for this. Make their death worth while, at least

For psychological tests... Here's a bit of a problem. We can't exactly use data gathered by the outcasts and undesirables for the general population. And they can't use innocent people for it either...

[Dredge]

I'm reminded of two clips recorded on 2015s Darwin Day of a sort of AMA by Richard Dawkins:

[Raven Song]

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-homos ... population

some good responses from both sides of the argument on there...

64% say yes, it is evolutionary, 36% so no. The comments are cool.

So far I cannot find evidence of it onlne to support that it may occur in animals such as chimps. the only thing I know is that chimps in captive troops often become homosexual, but that could just be because the poor buggers are captive and have no cooking clue what to do with themselves...

[Contrast]

My father used to breed Indian Ringneck parrots, and he knew another breeder who once had two parrots who turned out to be homosexual, despite them having plenty of females to mate with.

When it became clear they weren't going to produce any offspring, he wrung their necks. I was appalled, but apparently their lives weren't as valuable as the feed they would have consumed.

[Raven Song]

I did read that parrots, penguins, pigs, frogs, Canadian geese and dolphins all naturally display homosexuality

[Franky]

Homosexuality is not a disease lol.

In a child's upbringing certain nerological connections controls this but it has to develop over time. Since we all don't experiance the world through a single pair of eyes these mappings differ. Hence some like the same sex and some the opposite.

It is the same way fetishes are born.

[Raven Song]

I know it isn't a disease (not sure who you're targeting that comment at ) but I do believe there's a bit more to it than just brain connects here, brain connects there. I think there's chemical and neurological influences at play.

[Adagio]

Homosexuality is not a disease lol.

In a child's upbringing certain nerological connections controls this but it has to develop over time. Since we all don't experiance the world through a single pair of eyes these mappings differ. Hence some like the same sex and some the opposite.

It is the same way fetishes are born.

I agree with you fully here...
Upbringing and circumstances.

[Raven Song]

I'm going to disagree with you slightly there by throwing out this real world evidence:

Child 1 - Me
Mom and Dad middle class workers
One younger sister 7 years difference
parents divorced age 11
Primary school all girls school
High school all girls school
Bad sexual experience with man aged 19
considers self Bisexual

Child 2 - My best friend
Mom and Dad middle class workers
one younger sister 5 years difference
parents divorced at 9
Primary school all girls school
High school all girls school
Bad sexual experience with man aged 17
considers self exclusively straight

Child 3 - Our mutual friend
mom and dad middle class workers
one younger sister 3 years difference
parents never divorced properly, but they split when she was 10 so same difference.
Primary school all girls school
high school all girls school
one sexual experience with a guy when she was 18, wouldn't describe it as good or bad, she said he was mediocre
considers self so lesbian they haven't invented a system for measuring it.

the three of us got along so well growing up because our upbringings were NEAR IDENTICLE. all three of us had younger siblings, a fair amount of age apart. all three of us went to exclusively all girls schools our entire career (until I moved to homeschooling because I'm a lazy shit and couldn't handle my one other friend) all three of us had some form of sexual experience which was, what could be considered rape or forceful in nature, in our late teens. in fact the straight friends experience put her in hospital. and yet she's straight. I'm the pansy who's petrified of men, but am bisexual, and the lesbo decided she was lesbo before we even got to high school.
all three of our mothers were relatively but not heavily Christian. All three of our fathers were not.
all three of our mothers taught some form of artistic class, which made all three of our fathers grumpy - leading to divorce.
All three of our fathers cheated at some point in the marriage
all three of us lived within a half hours walk of each other.

its kind of weird but yeah. The three of us grew up on VERY SIMILAR (not identical... the straight friends parents believed in spare the rod, spoil the child... while the lesbian friends mother was too busy trying to perfect the sculpture of Adonis to discipline anyone) and yet the three of us each came out with a different sexuality. and its not like the straight friend could even consider herself bisexual - she is genuinely repulsed by the idea (we tried ) and the lesbian friend had one experience to see what it was like and nope she's gay as fuck.

so yeah, I understand minor tweaks in the pattern could cause change to the connections etc.

BUT

even though circumstance and upbringing are a factor, I don't believe they are the ONLY factor at play.

[jacojerb]

Interesting thing I heard from my mom a few years back (the reason I'm mentioning the mom part is because I don't have any other references for this)... Apparently there's a species of fruit bat that is actually in danger, due to the majority of the males turning out homosexual, and thus not mating. Once again, I never did research into it... Perhaps I should

After Googling this: "fruit bat species in danger due to homosexuality" and only finding stuff on homosexuality in animals in general... I don't really know if it's true or not

[Splicer-Fox]

Here is something interesting.
This guy gets so much sexual stimulation form violence that he climaxes before he even starts to rape his victim.

How does a body even get wired to respond like that?

I wonder if people exist that can climax by just thinking?

[Randall]

OK my cousin, who grew up with us, is as gay as fuck...

Upbringing was not much of a factor... he did try and date girls in high school before coming to the realisation he was gay.
But we saw the signs long before. When he was still small he wanted to be a girl... badly.

Its a combination of what happens in vitro, genetics and environment I guess. For this reason I do not take kindly to those who say gay people ought to "snap out of it" or "it can be corrected with treatment". It can't, its how you are made.
And this is one of the reasons why I have a massive problem with religion. it is not the only reason, but its one of the big reasons.

A large part of what I enjoy was what I was born with. The rest was imprints from sexual experiences at a young age.

[Valerion]

Please don't continue the current discussion. Pedophilia, Bestiality / Zoophilia and Rape are not to be discussed here. All three are illegal topics, in ZA, and very serious offenses, and as such, won't be tolerated, even as a theoretical discussion. Please re-read the forum rules.

Many furs are uncomfortable with these topics. Also, it's very easy to turn this thread into a "X promotes Y" discussion outside the forum, and some allegations, like these, don't need evidence to be condemned in public. The mere accusation, without any truth to it, have ruined many people's lives once it becomes public knowledge. Hence, no discussions. Especially in an open forum that is readable by anyone on the Internet.

I have asked Rakuen to remove some posts in this thread when he returns. We will unlock it then.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

I've removed pretty much all of the discussion around illegal topics. If you are going to discuss topics that are illegal, please talk to me or Valerion first and get that approved. In some cases we can allow it. In other cases, such as this, there is too much potential for drama and due to the risks both to the forum and users it has been decided that such discussions will not be permitted on the forum.

Also, I've unlocked it since I see that was Valerion's original intention.

[Leeward]

I'm just going to once again reiterate that I think that that rule is retarded and that there should be a workaround. An anonymous area perhaps?

Anyway, I think it's a real pity that some people adamantly believe that they should be ashamed of themselves because they happen to be a certain way that happens to be a minority.