Gun control

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Re: Gun control

#61

Post by Raven Song »

My bad. I got fold confused with score again...
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Re: Gun control

#62

Post by Adagio »

Leeward wrote:I can almost guarantee you that those cases are due to people storing their guns in safes.
Exactly!

The biggest problem is, people are afraid of guns. They shouldn't be afraid of guns, in the same way the shouldn't be afraid of a hammer.

A gun does not kill. People do.
Blaming/banning guns is like blaming a car for an accident.
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Re: Gun control

#63

Post by Leeward »

RavenSong wrote:Leeward, we stored ours in a safe for it's whole life. we never shot ourselves. that's an unjustified remark... prove it.
I didn't mean that people shot themselves with their own guns... I meant that they would be held up and forced to give up their locked up firearm, which, had it been within reach, could have been used to prevent the whole thing.
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Re: Gun control

#64

Post by Sev »

It's simple: respect guns as much as you respect cars. In the hands of the untrained, both are dangerous weapons.
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Re: Gun control

#65

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward wrote:It only makes you a target if you make it public knowledge. The thing is, criminals don't obey laws, that's kind of their thing. So banning all civilian firearms will only reinforce the black market for them (i.e. there will be a market for weapons stolen from police, military, illegally imported, etc), and that will just make law-abiding citizens more vulnerable.
Except that didn't happen in the UK or Australia. What happened is the number of crimes involving guns dropped dramatically after stricter laws were passed concerning guns. Similarly the Slate article I linked earlier mentions a case in one of the US states were they relaxed gun laws and rates of gun violence increased.
Leeward wrote:I didn't mean that people shot themselves with their own guns... I meant that they would be held up and forced to give up their locked up firearm, which, had it been within reach, could have been used to prevent the whole thing.
Adagio wrote:The biggest problem is, people are afraid of guns. They shouldn't be afraid of guns, in the same way the shouldn't be afraid of a hammer.

A gun does not kill. People do.
Blaming/banning guns is like blaming a car for an accident.
I feel like you two completely skipped over all the posts about research on gun violence. All the evidence says the opposite to what you are claiming. Is there any study that supports your position?
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Re: Gun control

#66

Post by Leeward »

I did read it, but I disagree with the methodology of their data collection, which neglects some important details, such as mode of storage, competence, and regularity of use. There are two things in particular I have an issue with: suicide by gun, and handing in a firearm to police.

Someone who is determined to commit suicide will find the means to do it. Of course the gun has much less chance to fail than a semi-committal attempt such as pills. That doesn't mean the lack of a gun will prevent the suicide; that person could just as well jump off a bridge. Also my partner's mother is a trauma surgeon, and has seen many cases of people shooting themselves in the head and surviving, albeit with some brain damage.

SAPS has admitted to "losing" over 20 000 firearms between 2004 and 2011. Three guesses as to where they went... Were they actually lost in inventory? Doubtful. Were they stolen by thieves? Yeah right, in a police station full of armed cops. Were they re-sold on the black market? ... Of course there won't be any data on this but knowing how corruption runs rampant in this country, I wouldn't be surprised if the police themselves were the ones supplying weapons to criminals. In fact I've come across several corrupt cops who tried to intimidate victims reporting crimes to hand in their possessions (firearms, and in one case, car) despite this being totally unnecessary and illegal. So in my opinion, handing in your firearm to the police is just about the worst thing to do in the name of public safety.
Last edited by Leeward on Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun control

#67

Post by Randall »

Any everyday item, even a pen, can become a deadly weapon, if used incorrectly.
There are more dangerous items in everyone's home than firearms.

Whether others here like it or not, I do not see a very rosy picture in this country's future, and until such time that I get accepted into an overseas country, I will be arming myself, to protect my family against the criminals. It is going to happen, whether everyone likes it or not.

I am not a dick about it either, because many a gun owner, especially that erstwhile anime guru from way back when, like to "show it off", to be seen as fully hardcore, the surest way to losing a nut or a leg. The thing needs to be in reach, so that when they are in the house I am ready for them. This is where training then comes in, knowing how to react legally in these situations, etc...

I grew up with firearms in the house, I am used to them, and their presence does not faze me, especially with the knowledge that I have other shit that is even more deadly in the house than a 9mm pistol.

Its like the machinery I use, treat it with respect and you will be fine. A car can kill more people than one loaded gun.

As soon as I am unpacked in the new house, and all the necessary loose ends are tied up, I will be doing the necessary to get licensed, and certified as competent to use a firearm. Both myself and my wife will be doing it. I have already got the legally required safe, so we're off to a start. But that thing will be under my pillow every night... My old man is also certified to use a firearm, he's done the whole rigmarole from start to finish.
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Re: Gun control

#68

Post by Sev »

Except that didn't happen in the UK or Australia. What happened is the number of crimes involving guns dropped dramatically after stricter laws were passed concerning guns. Similarly the Slate article I linked earlier mentions a case in one of the US states were they relaxed gun laws and rates of gun violence increased.
Hahaha. No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_viole ... s_by_state

Look at this:
District of Columbia 601,723 10298 131 99 3.6% 21.8 16.5
Arizona 6,392,017 57.05 352 232 31.1% 5.5 3.6

DC is the most gun unfriendly place in the entire US.
Arizona is the most gun friendly.
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Re: Gun control

#69

Post by Raven Song »

Sonic, I don't want to sound like I'm being mean but you admitted to having a mental condition which you are on medication for and your wife is bipolar...

Competency Certificate

The FCA requires that an application to possess a firearm, trade in firearms, manufacture firearms, or be licensed as a gunsmith be submitted to a Firearms Officer for the area where the applicant currently maintains or will in the future maintain his or her residence or business.[34] A first-time application for a competency certificate may be granted only if the applicant
•is at least twenty-one years old;[35]
•is a citizen or a permanent resident;
•is a “fit and proper person” for the license he or she is seeking;
•is stable and does not have a proclivity for violence;
•does not have a substance-abuse problem;
•has no conviction within the five years immediately preceding the application for certain crimes related to violence, dishonesty, recklessness, or instability;[36]
•has not “become or been declared unfit to possess a firearm” under the FCA or the 1969 AAA within the five years preceding the application; and
•has completed all the required tests on his understanding of the FCA, the training and test for the safe and effective use of a firearm, and all other applicable training and tests for the specific license he or she is seeking.[37]

Competency certificates are not permanent. A competency certificate to possess a firearm, trade in firearms, manufacture firearms, or open a gunsmith business is valid for as long as the license to which it relates remains valid, unless the certificate is terminated or renewed.[38] A competency certificate relating to a muzzle-loading firearm is issued for ten years.[39]

The FCA Regulations impose additional requirements. For instance, it requires anyone who provides a recommendation on behalf of any applicant to attest that the applicant
•is a fit and proper person to be issued a competency certificate, license, permit, or authorization;
•is in stable mental condition and does not have a propensity for violence; and
•does not suffer from a substance-abuse problem.[40]

I'm not saying you WILL NOT pass. Chances are you will because I don't know the levels of your illness nor your wives...
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Re: Gun control

#70

Post by Randall »

We are both stable, I think my wife is in even better shape than I am.

If I am declined then I will simply get a paintball gun, that will also subdue them
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Re: Gun control

#71

Post by Raven Song »

Sonic2k wrote:We are both stable, I think my wife is in even better shape than I am.

If I am declined then I will simply get a paintball gun, that will also subdue them
That's a much better idea. they'll be colourful and most likely run away in terror but not dead, and if you accidently hit a family member the only trouble you'll be in is getting paint out of their pj's.
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Re: Gun control

#72

Post by Leeward »

Or an airsoft gun. Or an air pistol. Pretty much anything used for sport that doesn't require a licence. Also you can get paintball pellets that are filled with cayenne pepper. Oh and paintball paint is based on water and corn flour, specifically designed to be easy to remove from clothing.
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Re: Gun control

#73

Post by Raven Song »

Leeward wrote:Or an airsoft gun. Or an air pistol. Pretty much anything used for sport that doesn't require a licence. Also you can get paintball pellets that are filled with cayenne pepper. Oh and paintball paint is based on water and corn flour, specifically designed to be easy to remove from clothing.
More evidence of my lack of experience in paintball :D

I'm a lazer tag girl. It hurts less :P

Sonic, speaking of cayenne pepper, why not equip your wife with pepper spray?

And you could also leave a few of those "Torch in one end, tazer in the other" in safe places in your house. We have those at stables. They are very effective against the security company... my bad.
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Re: Gun control

#74

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward wrote:Someone who is determined to commit suicide will find the means to do it.
That's not what the research suggests.
Sev wrote:Hahaha. No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_viole ... s_by_state

Look at this:
District of Columbia 601,723 10298 131 99 3.6% 21.8 16.5
Arizona 6,392,017 57.05 352 232 31.1% 5.5 3.6

DC is the most gun unfriendly place in the entire US.
Arizona is the most gun friendly.
Is it cherry season? While no one is going to deny those specific cases, that is not the way to show a trend. Trends are based on overall data, not specific data points. A place like DC is what is known as an outlier or an exception; it's somewhere that does not accurately represent the real picture.

You might notice Washington DC is different in a number of ways. For example, it houses the Capitol and a number of important buildings and people, it's population density is 10X higher than the next closest state, the murder rate is double that in the next highest state and it's less than half the size of Cape Town city (not counting the metro). When making a comparison it is vitally important to control confounding factors so that the only variable is the one you are interested in. That's why in the studies mentioned above they talk about adjusting for income, alcohol use and all those other factors. These states are not directly comparable and that's why one can only make valid conclusions by looking at the data as a whole.

The importance of a finding like this one:
These findings are further supported by a case study examining the impact of a 2007 Missouri decision to repeal its permit-to-purchase handgun licensing law. The research concluded that the repeal was associated with a 16 percent increase in annual murder rates, indicating that state gun control laws have a significant impact on the homicide rate.
Is that it happens in the same state. There is change in the gun control laws and that is followed by a change in the murder rate. Obviously other things will vary as well but there is a far greater similarity in a single state from year to year than by comparing two different states.
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Re: Gun control

#75

Post by Sev »

I don't think that shooting an intruder with a paintball marker or airsoft rifle is going to be a good idea.
Phoenix (/ˈfiːnɪks/) is the capital, and largest city, of the state of Arizona. With 1,445,632 people (as of the 2010 U.S. Census), Phoenix is the most populous state capital in the United States, as well as the sixth most populous city nationwide.[4]
Street gangs and the drug trade had turned into public safety issues by the 1980s, and the crime rate in Phoenix continued to grow.[236] After seeing a peak in the early and mid 1990s, the city has seen a general decrease in crime rates. The Maricopa County Jail system is the fourth-largest in the world.[98] The violent crime rate peaked in 1993 at 1146 crimes per 100,000 people, while the property crime rate peaked a few years earlier, in 1989, at 9,966 crimes per 100,000.

In the most recent numbers from the FBI (2012), those rates currently stand at 637 and 4091, respectively. Since their peak in 2003, murders have dropped from 241 to 123 in 2012. In the 20 years since 1993, there have only been five years in which the violent crime rate has not declined.[237] In 2001 and 2002 Phoenix ranked first in the nation in vehicle thefts, with over 22,000 and 25,000 cars stolen each year respectively.[238] It has declined every year since then, and last year[when?] stood at just over 480, a drop of almost 75% in the decade. The Phoenix MSA has dropped to 70th in the nation in terms of car thefts in 2012.[239]

As the first decade of the new century came to a close, Arizona had become the gateway to the U.S. for drug trafficking.[240] Another crime issue related to the drug trade are kidnappings. In the late 2000s, Phoenix earned the title "Kidnapping capital of the USA".[241] The majority of the kidnapped are believed to be victims of human smuggling, or related to illegal drug trade, while the kidnappers are believed to be part of Mexican drug cartels.[240]
As you can see, Phoenix is highly populated. It is also far from a problem free city. With this in mind, wanting some means of personal defense no longer seems so unreasonable.

It might also be worth considering that private ownership of guns is illegal in Mexico, yet the homicide rates in that country are absolutely shocking.
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Re: Gun control

#76

Post by Raven Song »

My friend is a warden at a juvenile penitentiary in Phoenix.

I'm gonna ask her what she thinks.
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Re: Gun control

#77

Post by Sev »

That should be interesting.

Also, you seem to have quite the variety of friends.
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Re: Gun control

#78

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

I try to educate you about experimental design and your response is to double down? :/
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Re: Gun control

#79

Post by Sev »

Because general life is not compatible with the scientific method.

And I studied both Physics and Psychology I university, so I most assuredly do not need to be "educated".

The point I am trying to make is that it is more a matter of culture than it is of the laws themselves. The average Arizonan has far more respect for guns than someone from DC. When you spend your life around guns you learn that they are a tool. And like any other tool, they have the potential to be greatly misused.
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Re: Gun control

#80

Post by Franky »

Sev wrote:And I studied both Physics and Psychology I university, so I most assuredly do not need to be "educated".
I'm sorry Sev but any true scientist will laugh his ass off at that statement. :lol:
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Re: Gun control

#81

Post by Sev »

I meant it in the limited context of Rakuen's statement, hence the quotation marks.

On the contrary, I try and learn new things every day.
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Re: Gun control

#82

Post by Franky »

Yeah just remember one thing...

Life is visceral, rather than intellectual. And the most visceral practitioners of life are those who characterize themselves as “intellectuals”. -Spiro Agnew

Just thought I'd put it out there considering the overwhelming increase in some local furries attempted subliminal ego trips that I read daily on this site.
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Re: Gun control

#83

Post by Sev »

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand:

I saw this video by one of the people that I am subscribed to, which nicely fits in.

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Re: Gun control

#84

Post by Fluke »

To be honest, I don't feel like reading most of this. But I always laugh at analogies made with guns and other objects.

The difference is things like cars aren't purpose-built for death :p

Also trying to draw comparisons to other countries is also stupid, the variables are so stupidly large. The biggest one being that the UK and USA define a violent crime completely differently - the UK being much, much broader in the definition than the USA.
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Re: Gun control

#85

Post by Raven Song »

Sev wrote:That should be interesting.

Also, you seem to have quite the variety of friends.
Yes, because I like to meet and talk to people as often as possible. this particular friend worked with me for six months. She was born in SA, moved to the states as a kid, when her older brother was put into prison for some crime (I think it was robbery and assault but I forget exactly the details) came back to SA, became a security officer for ADT, hated it, worked as a telephone interviewer for us till she fell pregnant, quit, had baby, moved back to the states, first to Florida, then to Houston and finally in Phoenix. She was a security officer in Florida, did her tests etc and got a job as a full scale prison warden in Houston, decided she hated working with prison adults, and got offered the job as prison warden in Phoenix.

Her husband taught me to disable an attacked who had a gun to my face. I doubt it would work in real life... but it was sweet of him.
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Re: Gun control

#86

Post by Sev »

Fluke wrote:The difference is things like cars aren't purpose-built for death :p
It's all about the intent of the user. Crossbows are made for killing and yet no one wants to ban them...
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Re: Gun control

#87

Post by Raven Song »

Sev wrote:
Fluke wrote:The difference is things like cars aren't purpose-built for death :p
It's all about the intent of the user. Crossbows are made for killing and yet no one wants to ban them...
How many people own crossbows?
Why would they need a crossbow when they can just go buy a gun to kill people.
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Re: Gun control

#88

Post by Sev »

Let's see: collecting, hunting, sports, or decoration. Really, many of the same reasons that one would own a gun.

As soon as I get my permanent residence in the US, I shall be getting a 9mm. It shall be used exclusively for target shooting; not killing, not mugging, not intimidation.
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Re: Gun control

#89

Post by Fluke »

Sev wrote:
Fluke wrote:The difference is things like cars aren't purpose-built for death :p
It's all about the intent of the user. Crossbows are made for killing and yet no one wants to ban them...
Same reason slapping a Type R or AMG badge instantly ups your insurance premium.
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Re: Gun control

#90

Post by Raven Song »

I still rate in order to own a AMG etc. you should have your advanced drivers licence...

but that's for a different discussion.
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