Animal cruelty in the food industry

[Sev]

Okay, Rakuen, what do you propose that we do with 1.5 billion cows? Release them into the wild?

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Okay, Rakuen, what do you propose that we do with 1.5 billion cows? Release them into the wild?

I'll ignore the fact that this is actually changing the focus on what we are meant to be discussing (I'll be reviewing a book on logical arguments soon where this specific error is mentioned) but no. One can simply stop breeding more and let the population decline.

[Leeward]

Rakuen, please stop harping on about how it's a question of status quo. It's not. There's more to it than that.

[Sev]

Okay, Rakuen, what do you propose that we do with 1.5 billion cows? Release them into the wild?

I'll ignore the fact that this is actually changing the focus on what we are meant to be discussing (I'll be reviewing a book on logical arguments soon where this specific error is mentioned) but no. One can simply stop breeding more and let the population decline.

That's rich. Cows live for around 15 years. Who is going to support them for that long?

[Leeward]

That's rich. Cows live for around 15 years. Who is going to support them for that long?

The benevolent vegetarians, of course.

[Adagio]

That's rich. Cows live for around 15 years. Who is going to support them for that long?

Benevolent vegetarians, I assume.

Hahahahaha!!!!

[Rakuen Growlithe]

It's a bit sad that you don't seem to believe in charity. (or atoning for one's mistakes) Especially when using a forum that is completely free for you.

[Leeward]

Oh I believe in charity all right, I just highly doubt that if mankind were to stop eating meat overnight, all the hipster vegetarians (who stopped eating meat before it was cool) would volunteer to adopt all the cows in the world. They would more likely go "Nope, you wanted to eat meat, now the cows are your problem."

[Sev]

Don't worry, Leeward, the non-existant cattle industry will support the cows.

Either that or the now jobless people will adopt them as pets.

[Raven Song]

As someone said earlier it wouldn't happen overnight. Cows live for approximately 15 years. so for 15 years you limit breeding and allow the last of the current "eating" stock to be eaten, by which point many societies will have adopted vegetarian and none leather needs. fifteen years is a long time. five years is a long time. feck five months is a long time if you ask me...

that leaves only a handful of cows which could be returned to the wild (because cows did technically come from the wild many millennia ago, we didn't just bio-engineer them, the world has had them around for a while) and bobs your uncle cows are happy. In either china or india (I forget) cows aren't eaten but there are loads of them running around. sure those countries have high populations of poor people, but that isn't because they don't eat and use the cows.

[Leeward]

Anyway can we please move past the completely absurd scenarios?

[Raven Song]

I don't see how they are completely absurd. At least people are trying to think of solutions, if people don't eat meat, then animals don't need to suffer in poorly kept farms etc. I've seen battery chickens and their houses, I've worked with them and I know the men at rainbow who proudly announce "We have free range chickens" who are free range in the sense that they can go outside if they want, they just wont because the food is kept inside.

I like what the vegetarians promote, and to an extent I have become a sort of vegetarian (I am eating my very first piece of meat tonight in over five weeks). Even though it has been hard for my body which suffers from Iron and Protein Issues as well as lactic acid build up which can be assisted by higher protein diets.

Because at the end of the day that banana suffered less than that sheep.

I'd like to start a discussion on something that isn't all that controversial for a change.

Looks like you were wrong with thinking that...

This will always be a very controversial topic.

[Leeward]

Well at least everyone can agree that being sadistic to an animal is monstrous.

In the US, animal abuse is now a Class A felony.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Well at least everyone can agree that being sadistic to an animal is monstrous.

In the US, animal abuse is now a Class A felony.

Well... it looks like all the motivation there is about what people who abuse animals might go on to do in the future. It's got nothing to do with concern about the animals themselves. That's usually the case with animal cruelty laws. There are animal groups that care about the animals but the people who write the laws don't care at all. Any benefits to the animals are just incidental while they make laws to get what they want.

[Raven Song]

yeah and they've done a lot to crack down on it. the man that slaughtered a show jumper is getting fifteen years in prison with no parole.

South Africa's biggest problem is the fact that the animal welfare companies have no jurisdiction, and due to traditional laws animals often fall under property laws instead of the correct laws.

I worked with Highveld Horse Care Unit for a few months to pass some time when I was younger and it was horrible.

Also Rakuen not always true, like here in England the one guy who's been passing some of the sterner laws on animal abuse is a vet and has a better knowledge.

[Leeward]

I worked with Highveld Horse Care Unit for a few months to pass some time when I was younger and it was horrible.

I follow those guys on Facebook. They do fantastic work, but the stuff they see every day is just horrific. I find it sad that such organisations have to exist, and that they have to walk on eggshells to get anything done, as if they were the ones in the wrong.

[Raven Song]

We once had a case where a guy transported three horses in a truck, anyway the mare stood on the foals (okay it was a three year old but it was her foal) leg and damaged it. when he got to where ever he was going his nephew tried to ride the youngster and then beat it senseless because it refused to go anywhere (because he was dead lame). I stood by him while Dr Caryn put him out of his misery, and two of our grooms threatened to beat the owners to within an inch of their lives as we loaded mare and her friend up into the box to come home with us. When the owner then started objecting because he never gave Dr Caryn (Dr. Caryn Radejmeyer, one of the greatest vets I will ever know) permission to euthenise the horse, we had to call in the cops even though we had a warrant for seizure of property from the court, which puts the horse in our name and gives us full legal right to do as we please.
when the police got to us the owners son tried to make it out like we were the baddies and the police accosted our one groom, and took us two hours to convince them we were the right people and then the police arrested both man and son.

was very traumatic for a seventeen year old girl to go through...


I also had the entire contents of a horses stomach land on me during a colic treatment... that was entertaining...

[Leeward]

Not all of us can be Airbender monks... some of us have to be Water Tribe warriors.

[Adagio]

Not all of us can be Airbender monks... some of us have to be Water Tribe warriors.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! I LOVE that show!

[Raven Song]

I dunno. the more time I spend in England the more i'm finding the adaptation to a vegetarian lifestyle easier.

I still eat meat when I can, but life during the week doesn't really give me time to cook etc. so I'm living on vegetarian microwave meals thanks to living in a muslim area and other stupid reasons...

I'd like to one day survive without biltong... and bacon... and ribs... but I do miss those...

[Sev]

Here we go, I've used up my all my happy bubbles to split your thread into two workable threads. Now all the people who have probably not spent the last 10 years studying science or following the whole religion/science debate for the previous eight years can rehash the same arguments that are well-established in far more refined forms.

Despite seemingly having a massively inflated view of your own importance and a startling condescension towards the denizens of this forum, you are not a particularly adept debater.

You falsely accuse people of committing logical fallacies, yet you often commit fopaux after fopaux. Had you not told me you have a Masters I would never have guessed.

[Raven Song]

Much skill Rakuen. Much skill.

wow. Sev just laid it down...

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Like I said, I was tired, worn out and irritable. A faux pas is a social blunder, not a problem with an argument. But I am curious where you think I was falsely accusing people.

[Sev]

"A severe social blunder or major breach in etiquette."

I was leaning more towards the latter.

There were several occasions during the Animal cruelty thread. As amusing as that thread was, it was rather circular, in no small part due to your constant reiteration of the same point.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

There were several occasions during the Animal cruelty thread. As amusing as that thread was, it was rather circular, in no small part due to your constant reiteration of the same point.

I was kinda hoping for a concrete example that would support your claim. There were times that didn't progress, mostly due to a difference in values.

[Sev]

Okay, the one that sticks out was when I asked for your input, and you called that a logical fallacy.

A call for the other party's opinion might not be good debating, but it's far from a logical misstep.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Okay, the one that sticks out was when I asked for your input, and you called that a logical fallacy.

A call for the other party's opinion might not be good debating, but it's far from a logical misstep.

You mean "Okay, Rakuen, what do you propose that we do with 1.5 billion cows? Release them into the wild?" If so, look up Red Herring and Appeal to Consequences.

[Sev]

How is that a Red Herring? It was a core part of the argument.

Likewise, it's not even remotely an appeal to consequences.

I provided a fact and asked you what you would do about it.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Red herring because it shifts the discussion away from ethics and animal suffering to the consequences of a particular course of action. What we do in the future will be informed by the decision we make regarding what is ethical, not the other way around.

Appeal to consequences because you imply that the consequences of not eating meat, all the animals raised for meat that we would still have to deal with, perhaps at a large economic cost, should affect our decision regarding ethics in meat production. I.e. If we don't eat the animals it will cripple us economically so we should keep eating meat.

[Sev]

The meat and poultry industry is the largest segment of U.S. agriculture. Total meat and poultry production in 2012 reached more than 93 billion pounds.

In 2013, the meat and poultry industry processed:
8.6 billion chickens
33.2 million cattle
239.4 million turkeys
2.3 million sheep and lambs
112 million hogs

In 2013, American meat companies produced:
25.8 billion pounds of beef
23.2 billion pounds of pork
5.8 billion pounds of turkey
286 million pounds of veal, lamb and mutton
38.4 billion pounds of chicken

If we suddenly stopped eating meat or using animals for their raw materials, we would have a massive problem.

In 2013, more than 482,100 workers were employed in the meat and poultry packing and processing industries. Their combined salaries total more than $19 billion.

Through its production and distribution linkages, the meat and poultry industry impacts firms in all 509 sectors of the U.S. economy, in every state and every congressional district in the country.

In all, companies involved in meat production, along with their suppliers, distributors, retailers and ancillary industries employ 6.2 million people in the U.S. with jobs that total $200 billion in wages.

Through direct taxes paid, these companies and their employees provide $81.2 billion in revenues to federal, state and local governments. The consumption of meat and poultry generates $2.4 billion in state sales taxes.

The meat and poultry industry's economic ripple effect generates $864.2 billion annually to the U.S. economy, or roughly 6% of the entire GDP.