In SA right now

[Dragonwolf]

Who feels that what is happening in our country right now is going to be its down fall? With all the riots happening in the townships, I hear that they may even spread into the cities. How do you think this is going to help the 2010 sorrer world cup? I feel that we are going to lose big money and our reputation as a rainbow nation is going to be... Destroyed. Some people in other countries have already refunded their tickets for the soccer.

[Dracius]

Yea... its fuckin hardcore. This is really putting a huge downer on me... When I think about it, I get scared about the end result >..> I just heard this morning that stones were busy being exchanged at a township about 15-20km from where I stay, police are already on the scene.

This xenophobic behaviour spreads faster than AIDS...

But to answer your question, I have absolutely no idea. I'm not a hater, so I'm not really going to say much SA has burnt. Maybe it becomes under control later once the army steps in, maybe it will never be under control. We can only wait and see.

[anoyomouse]

Well, this wasn't the first time this has happened, and will probably not be the last.

this time tho it's jsut gotten out of hand a lot faster than last time.

I'm worried if they start to target all kinds of foreigners, not just the people in townships ... i'm almost scared bringing my wolf here >.<

[Dracius]

*pets the mouse* try not to worry about it. Its mostly a township issue and it really looks like its blacks against blacks. I doubt this is going to spread into the non-black communities, unless these xenophobics really make a mission to target every single foreigner thats within SA's boarders. I dont think that its possible... (under the current situation).

[anoyomouse]

Never know ...

They have been known to target people comming home from the airport, but that's more to rob people of their Forex

Anyways, i think he'll be safe

[Rakuen Growlithe]

This did spread rather fast. I have no clue why it suddenly flared up either. I heard SA is very xenophobic but this was still kinda a shock. It's stupid how people say the foreigners are stealing their jobs, they just don't want to work for them. They're all "we are Africans" until they come here then they are so horrible.

[Dracius]

This did spread rather fast. I have no clue why it suddenly flared up either. I heard SA is very xenophobic but this was still kinda a shock. It's stupid how people say the foreigners are stealing their jobs, they just don't want to work for them. They're all "we are Africans" until they come here then they are so horrible.

Yea, its easy for you to say that... Try living each day working for a loaf of bread between 6 family members. They have the mind set that if they kill the working foreigners it would apply them to find work easier so that they can struggle less. (this is their blatent thinking.)

The army would step in pretty quickly if it starts reaching to a national crisis. Its more or less under control, but the little sparks of violence are still happening.

All I can say is... Hang on tight.

[Red]

We have a similar issue here in Australia, minus the violence. We have people who are determined to kick out the foreigners just so that they don't "steal jobs", let alone do they realise that they or their parents were also foreigners in the past since most of the population here are descendents from the European migrants.

But there is also another thing, a lot of foreigners are willing to work for a cheaper wage, even though it is not legal to pay workers below the minimum wage, it does happen, and they dupe foreigners to work at such a minimal wage compared to everyone else, but this is not a common practice.

Most foreigners come to another country with a lot of determination, hence why they are seen as having a good success rate in getting jobs compared to the local population who expect the job to be handed to them on the platter (please don't take me out of context, I am just using this as an example). Sometimes it is frustrating trying to find a job and seeing the foreign looking people get it, there is nothing you can do about that (unless there is obvious wage cheating going on), you just have to try harder next time and hope to get the job by treating it as a competition with everyone else.

Cheers, Red.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

I agree with Red. It's people just too lazy to make the effort to get a job. Most of the foreigners that come here are from war zones so they come with absolutely nothing. The local people have family and friends that live here and can provide support. The foreigners just work harder to turn their lives around. And those that come with money and an education are helping the country with their skills, which are rare in the country as it is.

[Dracius]

Mmm, I dont think its so easy to say that they can "try harder." These people that are causing the violence are looking for jobs at the bottom of the food chain. Currently, the bottom of the SA chain in infected with foreigners. I'm not in support of the violence and all, but I am in support of the actual cause of the violence. I think its completely unfair for local jobs to be taken by foreigners. And at the same time, visa versa.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

If they're living here now they're not really foreigners. We are all people and it's not particularly fair to say they can't have jobs because they were born somewhere else. They didn't exactly have a choice in that. And a lot are coming from places like Zimbabwe where they don't even have a chance at getting a job. If you're gonna not let foreigners get a job why let people from Joburg come to Cape Town and get a job. They should get a job in their own city.

[Dragonwolf]

The some of the reasons that people are coming up with are that the locals think if they purge the country of foreigners that they will find jobs easier. Also they think the foreigners are 'stealing' their housing, food, water and medical attention. But it has gone way over board. Instead of going after ilegal foreigners, which is still wrong, they are going after anyone that they may suspect is foreign also they are taking advantage of the situation by robbing stores of local people.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Yeah, you can't tell foreigners by looking at them. They just becoming a big mob so they're going to do whatever they feel like. That means taking what they want and getting revenge on anyone they feel has done something wrong. And if a crowd gets excited it's easy for a small group to make them all do what they want.

[Denim]

A few points I'd like to raise about the issue.

It's actually true that some of the foreigners are stealing homes. RDP housing rollout has been slower and less effective than expected and immigrants who have paid off officials are receiving houses when citizens who have been waiting for over a decade have yet to get theirs.

Once you cross a border you are not a citizen. I'm not citing violence of any sort, but bear this in mind. To work in South Africa you need to either be a citizen or have a VISA or work permit. The border jumpers and weak border patrols allow hundreds, if not thousands of immigrants into the country, but they aren't able to work legally, no matter how smart or qualified.

According to studies the majority of crimes in most nations are committed by foreigners who are incapable of working legally and are thus forced to perform criminal activities to survive.

I spoke with a civil engineer just this weekend who's working on a long-term project to install pipes near a large rural settlement. Being born in Cape Town, coloured and slightly paler than the locals his vehicle was actually physically stopped with human bodies as he drove onto the site last week. He's fine, but he explained that was a lot more going on than just people not liking those who don't look like they do.

And also bear in mind that the USA has had 'trouble' with immigrants for decades. Border jumpers from all across South America have infiltrated the US in the hope of a better life for them and/or their families.

This is not an uncommon occurrence. It's not in any way acceptable to discriminate against those who are here legally, but frankly, yes the illegal immigrants should be deported. It's mean, but currently our infrastructure can only maintain so much mass on it's legs. The thousands of illegal immigrants don't help in any way :/

And if you think I'm a cunt then let me re-iterate that euthanasia should be legalised and that they should kill AIDS babies.

I'm not even kidding.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

Once you cross a border you are not a citizen. I'm not citing violence of any sort, but bear this in mind. To work in South Africa you need to either be a citizen or have a VISA or work permit. The border jumpers and weak border patrols allow hundreds, if not thousands of immigrants into the country, but they aren't able to work legally, no matter how smart or qualified.

Borders are just lines people draw. They don't really serve much of a purpose. They're useful in as much as they group people that live in the same area and under the same government but there's no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to move freely throughout the world.

According to studies the majority of crimes in most nations are committed by foreigners who are incapable of working legally and are thus forced to perform criminal activities to survive.

I'm not sure whether most foreigners commit crimes or not but most crime is not committed by foreigners.

And also bear in mind that the USA has had 'trouble' with immigrants for decades. Border jumpers from all across South America have infiltrated the US in the hope of a better life for them and/or their families.

Yeah. The USA causes their own problems. They have wealth but they won't share it and try uplift their neighbours. Instead they fence the place off while telling Israel it's wrong to build a long wall that cuts apart families and land.

This is not an uncommon occurrence. It's not in any way acceptable to discriminate against those who are here legally, but frankly, yes the illegal immigrants should be deported. It's mean, but currently our infrastructure can only maintain so much mass on it's legs. The thousands of illegal immigrants don't help in any way :/

I'm sure if you live here you know how ineffective the legal system can actually be. So you saying just because someone wasn't told he could move anywhere on the planet by some people who exploit their citizens he should lose his job, which means he's contributing to the country, and be sent back to a country plagued by war where he'll probably be killed for siding with a certain political party or being a certain race.

[Red]

Once you cross a border you are not a citizen. I'm not citing violence of any sort, but bear this in mind. To work in South Africa you need to either be a citizen or have a VISA or work permit. The border jumpers and weak border patrols allow hundreds, if not thousands of immigrants into the country, but they aren't able to work legally, no matter how smart or qualified.

Borders are just lines people draw. They don't really serve much of a purpose. They're useful in as much as they group people that live in the same area and under the same government but there's no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to move freely throughout the world.

Borders are not just imaginary lines; it is the boundary of where their administration control ends at such as taxes, infrastructure/services spending and the country's economy. A lot of countries have borders that are easy to move through anyway, such as the European Union States, or Australia and New Zealand (we don't need a visa to live and work in the other country).

Most of the time, countries block foreigners attempting to migrate in due to no employment being available or it could be that the country is only looking for people who hold a specific qualification in a certain field to fill in the skill shortages. It is not like a country can suddenly supply employment or water for an extra 1 million people with the flick of a switch, so border control is needed to prevent the country's living standards from collapsing due to exhaustion of all the resources around them so borders to serve a purpose.

One of my ideas is to build an international zone on the border of the problematic countries to act as a processing centre to relocate the genuine refugees to any areas that are able to absorb in extra people or even send them off to other countries such as New Zealand, UK or Australia if spaces are available. I don't think it would be too successful anyway since I see most border jumpers as greedy and selfish and would try to bypass the international zone anyway.

And also bear in mind that the USA has had 'trouble' with immigrants for decades. Border jumpers from all across South America have infiltrated the US in the hope of a better life for them and/or their families.

Yeah. The USA causes their own problems. They have wealth but they won't share it and try uplift their neighbours. Instead they fence the place off while telling Israel it's wrong to build a long wall that cuts apart families and land.

USA while it might be a wealthy country, it is also a country with a large amount of debt, so they can't afford to splash out onto neighbouring countries just because they have better living standards. I know we could go into a long argument about the Iraq war and the debt that came with it, but keep in mind that they also have debts due to spending of other infrastructures such as Transport, Health and Education (which is crap*ish* anyway

This is not an uncommon occurrence. It's not in any way acceptable to discriminate against those who are here legally, but frankly, yes the illegal immigrants should be deported. It's mean, but currently our infrastructure can only maintain so much mass on it's legs. The thousands of illegal immigrants don't help in any way :/

I'm sure if you live here you know how ineffective the legal system can actually be. So you saying just because someone wasn't told he could move anywhere on the planet by some people who exploit their citizens he should lose his job, which means he's contributing to the country, and be sent back to a country plagued by war where he'll probably be killed for siding with a certain political party or being a certain race.

It is not that simple, if too many people enter the country when the employment pool is not very big, the unemployment rate would increase causing more people to rely on welfare to live their day to day lives (and remember, most illegal migrants don't pay taxes), so this brings back to the migrant control issue. Countries control the migrant intake to a certain extent how their much their current resources can handle.

If the employment rate is low or a certain qualification field is in high demand, then the country of course would be willing to take in more people since it is going to help their economy, but that is not the case all the time.

Cheers, Red.

[Rakuen Growlithe]

What you say is true but is from a totally different perspective. Borders are imaginary as in there's nothing to say this is where a border should be. Yes they are where a certain country's control lies but I don't think countries are necessary any more and we can survive without them. What that leads to is free movement throughout the world and people having more control over their own lives.

[Dracius]

What you say is true but is from a totally different perspective. Borders are imaginary as in there's nothing to say this is where a border should be.

Erm, Raki... You are definitely looking at this in a really strange way. You current CAN see physical borders, in the form of fencing, walls, etc, etc. Yet its still easy to find a hole in the fence or just hop over. As said by Red, borders represent the size of country that its government claims for itself to provide its services and infrastructure. Borders also give a sense of security. Would you leave your front door open to the street? Leave open the security gate which forms part of a wall around your house? Its just something basic, like the sense of security, for millions of people, especially in SA.

Never heard of a castle wall? I'd hate to live in a country were unknown people of all shapes and sizes can just enter without any permission. Of course they would be allowed to come in, but with border control there should be stricter control. No that there isnt any control, you have a civil uprising.

Remember, you are dealing with HUMANS here. Not god's perfect creations. Humans always want more. (so do some dragons XD)

[Rakuen Growlithe]

What you say is true but is from a totally different perspective. Borders are imaginary as in there's nothing to say this is where a border should be.

Erm, Raki... You are definitely looking at this in a really strange way. You current CAN see physical borders, in the form of fencing, walls, etc, etc. Yet its still easy to find a hole in the fence or just hop over. As said by Red, borders represent the size of country that its government claims for itself to provide its services and infrastructure. Borders also give a sense of security. Would you leave your front door open to the street? Leave open the security gate which forms part of a wall around your house? Its just something basic, like the sense of security, for millions of people, especially in SA.

Never heard of a castle wall? I'd hate to live in a country were unknown people of all shapes and sizes can just enter without any permission. Of course they would be allowed to come in, but with border control there should be stricter control. No that there isnt any control, you have a civil uprising.

Remember, you are dealing with HUMANS here. Not god's perfect creations. Humans always want more. (so do some dragons XD)

Yes, you can see the signs of human-made borders but before a fence was put there there wasn't a border nor any reason to put a border there. The difference between the house and the border is that a house is a lot smaller firstly and is used to contain your possessions and provides protection and privacy, like a dragon's cave. Now in the wild there are also animal's that have territories but I like to think we have evolved enough to be able to exist a little more politely and tolerantly. Although the whole point of this topic was pointing out our failures.

The thing is without borders you can live without counties. We can manage without them. Without countries even if a war breaks out less people will be drawn into it. You will also be more able to escape unfair persecution.

I know some people are greedy but I like to think the average person is more good than bad, or at least realises that unless they are nice other people won't be nice back, leading it to be in their best interests to treat others well.

[Dracius]

Yes, you can see the signs of human-made borders but before a fence was put there there wasn't a border nor any reason to put a border there. The difference between the house and the border is that a house is a lot smaller firstly and is used to contain your possessions and provides protection and privacy, like a dragon's cave. Now in the wild there are also animal's that have territories but I like to think we have evolved enough to be able to exist a little more politely and tolerantly. Although the whole point of this topic was pointing out our failures.

The thing is without borders you can live without counties. We can manage without them. Without countries even if a war breaks out less people will be drawn into it. You will also be more able to escape unfair persecution.

I know some people are greedy but I like to think the average person is more good than bad, or at least realises that unless they are nice other people won't be nice back, leading it to be in their best interests to treat others well.

This sounds more like heaven than anything else.