The paranormal!

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Re: The paranormal!

#31

Post by Sev »

Have any of you guys watched the new season of American Horror Story? It perfectly mixes seriousness and satire.
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Re: The paranormal!

#32

Post by Animew »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:There is no paranormal. Just co-incidences and imperfect knowledge/memory/senses.
aw shit son, you gon dun it nyao!

*cough cough* well, actually i completely agree with that... people tend to lump stuff in the category of "paranormal" when they can’t explain it, saying stuff like: "events that defy science!"

firstly, i personally think that this "science can’t explain it" nonsense is just perpetuated to cause a rift of opinions. if science can’t explain something then science isn’t trying hard enough.
<w< and frankly science CAN explain most of the so called paranormal, the mainstream just don’t admit it because imagine what would happen to society if you proved the existence of the soul or reincarnation. why would people bother with the temporary pleasures of material gain when they can pursue everlasting spiritual gain? O_o it would fuck up the economy if everyone were bettering themselves instead of working. i believe that's why the mainstream media make you believe only hipsters and kooks believe in the soul.

i have experienced first hand events that I can’t explain <w< like when i felt a hand on my shoulder but there was no one behind me... i was 100% lucid and at ease so there was no reason for me to hallucinate or imagine it... yet it happened. why? how? lol, i duno. and i probably never will. does that make me believe in ghosts? nope. trapping what could only be described as a soul inside an object kinda makes it seem a bit more plausible to me tho.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:That sounds a lot like sciencemustfall.
let’s not go the science versus religious/superstitious beliefs rout please... they are two completely different things that serve their own purpose. comparing science with religion attempts to turn the one into the other and that is a big mistake. science is there to explain the world around us, religion is there to explain morality. neither is perfect in their intended function but it’s all we have, and when you try to interchange those functions (science trying to lead the way in morality or religion trying to explain physics) you are in for a VERY bumpy ride.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Witnessing something doesn't mean that paranormal stuff is real. Eye witnesses even in normal crimes are notoriously unreliable and our senses and knowledge are limited. I can show still images where you will see movement. Show you movies which will make still objects in the real world seem to move. Show you images which will change colour and all sorts of things. Our senses are not accurate reflections of the world, a huge amount is just filled in by our brains. And just think about stage magicians. That's not real magic but it can look like it because we don't know what they are doing. That's the same thing for paranormal phenomena.
and thus we should discount them entirely? so we should discount a witness to murder because they can’t scientifically prove that there was a murder?
i do believe OBSERVATION was an important part of the scientific method... and just because YOU can’t observe the same thing under presumed similar circumstances doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
In the history of academia we have often limited our thinking to the thinking of a popular few, and that my friend… is NOT science.
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Re: The paranormal!

#33

Post by Franky »

I enjoy indulging in horror specific paranormal stuff but the problem with reality is that there are people who believe this shyte. Yes there are some jumps in real life that requires a bit of thinking and testing to explain.

Look at 112 Ocean avenue in Amityville. There's actually a place inside the house according to skeptics where if you step the floor board moves enough to counter balance the window springs making them open up. That would creep the crap out of anyone. Yet this doesn't justify Ronnie Dafoe's "I killed my family cause I was possessed by the devil approach" and he's rightfully in jail. Neither did the report from the Lutz family where they mentioned creaking noises, windows opening or whatever simple things correspond with the book released where it escalated to flying pig demons and toilets turning black.

But yeah that one ended in rightful justice. Lets think Carolyn Perron. She attempted to murder her child and didn't serve a day cause apparently a Bathsheba witch possessed her with a demon. And guess who showed up to make some quick cash? None other than the notorious Ed and Lorraine Warren. Shyte they where even there after the Amityville so called spook fest.

Houses creek. lights blow, you might hear some noises you don't recognized. Tadaa welcome to reality where its better to just find out what something is before making your own assumptions.
Last edited by Franky on Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The paranormal!

#34

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Animew wrote:and thus we should discount them entirely? so we should discount a witness to murder because they can’t scientifically prove that there was a murder?
You're taking what I said to a crazy extreme. An eyewitness is a single piece of evidence in a murder or robbery or whatever. Making a final decision of what did or did not happen should not be based on a single piece of evidence but on multiple pieces of evidence that together tell the same story. At the same time, not all evidence is equally reliable and they should be weighted according to how reliable they are. Eyewitnesses are one of the least reliable sources of evidence as people seldom observe enough to really be helpful, come with all sorts of unknown biases, multiple eyewitnesses do not always agree and memories fade and are filled in by our mind, sometimes to the point where truth is distorted. Despite these things being well documented, eyewitnesses are still believed to be a good source of evidence. That needs to change.
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Re: The paranormal!

#35

Post by Franky »

I want to buy this doll from the Warrens just to prove their stupid garbage lies.

Image

Shit give me everything in their museum. I'll lift the horrible burden from Lorraine's home.
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Re: The paranormal!

#36

Post by Galahad »

A good example of logical thinking debunking an allegedly paranormal phenomenon is that of James Randi, an illusionist-turned-skeptic. You can see him debunk and explain the method of British spirit medium Maureen Flynn HERE.

He demonstrates how spirit media (plural of spirit medium) use "cold reading" - probability and guesses, to narrow (not always successfully) their targets down to a single individual who seems to respond to their otherwise random statements. To certain onlookers, this may seem like some paranormal occurrence, when it is a deceitful system that relies on probability, self-deception (finding meaning in the meaningless) and suspension of disbelief.

The paranormal that is not broadcast and theatrical, I believe, has even less proof than the frequently debunked arts of spirit media and fortune telling - it relies on eyewitness accounts and fanciful legends. If an event is so utterly rare as to make it paranormal, it is by definition less likely than a more explicable cause, such as an overactive imagination, misinterpretation of a phenomenon with a better explanation, false rumour, acting, or lapse in sanity.

How many things that are now well-explained and well-documented once were believed to be paranormal or linked to superstition? Mental illness and seizures were once believed to indicate demonic possession. The famous "Surgeon's photograph" - allegedly of the Loch Ness monster - was proven to be fake. The "blood moon" was believed by some to signal an impending apocalypse. The phases of the moon were once believed to cause "lunacy", or madness. Et cetera.

These are all now better understood with better explanations.
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Re: The paranormal!

#37

Post by Leeward »

Also hysteria.
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Re: The paranormal!

#38

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Galahad wrote:A good example of logical thinking debunking an allegedly paranormal phenomenon is that of James Randi, an illusionist-turned-skeptic.
There's also an Indian, Sanal Edamaruku, who investigated a weeping statue in Mumbai. He found there was nothing supernatural, just a leaky drain whose water was carried up the statue by capillary action. For just revealing those facts he then faced blasphemy charges and now lives in Finland.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: The paranormal!

#39

Post by Hargan »

*thinks back to his earlier days on the forum*

Rakuen, I promise not to turn this into a debate :P Not again. we had enough wars :P So I will post my opinion and feelings, and leave it at this:

My personal belief and views on the paranormal are such that, frankly, while I do believe in a lot of it, provided I can prove it to myself using my worldviews and such, I don't want to anymore. I'm done with it. Sure, I'll talk about it, and even assist people having problems regarding it, I... don't want to remember any of it, nor what I've done. I'd like to return to the mundane, thank you very much.

So, I guess my only warning in this regard is: be careful what you wish for. I wished to understand, now I wish to forget.
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Re: The paranormal!

#40

Post by Animew »

Hargan wrote: be careful what you wish for. I wished to understand, now I wish to forget.
nyahahaha! looks like someone peered past the fourth wall... OwO changes things don'it.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: An eyewitness is a single piece of evidence in a murder or robbery or whatever. Making a final decision of what did or did not happen should not be based on a single piece of evidence but on multiple pieces of evidence that together tell the same story.
well there you go, you got my point. "debunking" eye witness reports don’t disprove the claim in general... just because there are a fucktone of hoaxes doesn’t mean there are not any real accounts, so pointing at instances where it has been proven to be fake or false and then saying it’s impossible or does not exist is rather naive methinks.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Despite these things being well documented, eyewitnesses are still believed to be a good source of evidence. That needs to change.
i know right! we should totes subject rape victims to intrusive medical scrutiny before putting some poor dirty old oke in jail for "allegedly" raping some chick! i mean women say the craziest stuff to get back at their husbands... i'm being sarcastic btw, the world isn’t quite black and white and often eye witnesses are the only thing folks have to go on.
Franky wrote: flying pig demons and toilets turning black.
nyahahahahaha! XD priceless!

but on a serious note, it seems a recurring argument is that people have either seen it happening or seen it be debunked and therefore they believe what they believe. i'd urge you guys to not believe everything you see and hear on the internet or tv. it’s been shown time and time again how easily manipulated opinions are by media... go find shit out for yourself if you really want to know whether or not it’s real, stop relying on the main stream opinions and go make your own.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
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Re: The paranormal!

#41

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Animew wrote:well there you go, you got my point. "debunking" eye witness reports don’t disprove the claim in general... just because there are a fucktone of hoaxes doesn’t mean there are not any real accounts, so pointing at instances where it has been proven to be fake or false and then saying it’s impossible or does not exist is rather naive methinks.
As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not just that you're debunking some eyewitnesses. It's that the supposed claims run counter to the entire established base of scientific knowledge. We don't know everything but there is no unknown where that fits. It's like asking someone if they know everything that is in their cupboard then, after they say no, saying there might be an elephant in there because there are gaps in what they know. Sure there are things in the cupboard that they don't know but an elephant just does not fit there.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
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Re: The paranormal!

#42

Post by Galahad »

To put it simply: if you assert a claim that something exists, the responsibility to prove it rests on you - not on the opposing side to disprove it. ;)

Animew, my friend! :D I was hoping we could cross swords again in a debate somewhat more appropriate this time.
i know right! we should totes subject rape victims to intrusive medical scrutiny before putting some poor dirty old oke in jail for "allegedly" raping some chick! i mean women say the craziest stuff to get back at their husbands... i'm being sarcastic btw, the world isn’t quite black and white and often eye witnesses are the only thing folks have to go on.
Eyewitnesses have their value, but can be fabricated easily. It makes false accusations almost too easy. And I believe it more fair to subject a victim to a mildly intrusive process to prove her aggressor guilty and put him behind bars undeniably (or in doing so, at least weaken any defense of him - which would be to the victim's benefit), than risk jailing an innocent man for over a decade to waste his life away on false testimony.

Situations like these are ugly to talk about irrespective of the outcome.
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Re: The paranormal!

#43

Post by Cape_F0X »

My parents know of a guy who bought a possessed dog.
Destruction of the demon dog was simpler than exorcism.
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Re: The paranormal!

#44

Post by Animew »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sure there are things in the cupboard that they don't know but an elephant just does not fit there.
that’s actually a pretty nice analogy. but to use that analogy, you only assume an elephant would not fit in there because you assume you understand the nature of the cupboard. can you truly say you understand the world to the extent that you can rule out the ethereal without a doubt?
Galahad wrote:To put it simply: if you assert a claim that something exists, the responsibility to prove it rests on you - not on the opposing side to disprove it. ;)
very true. but it swings both ways, if you assert a claim that something does not exist, the responsibility to disprove it rests on you.
Galahad wrote: I believe it more fair to subject a victim to a mildly intrusive process to prove her aggressor guilty and put him behind bars undeniably (or in doing so, at least weaken any defense of him - which would be to the victim's benefit), than risk jailing an innocent man for over a decade to waste his life away on false testimony.
i'm totes with you on that tho. it may seem unfair to have someone subjected to intrusive medical scrutiny because of something someone else did but life is unfair like that.
Cape_F0X wrote:My parents know of a guy who bought a possessed dog.
Destruction of the demon dog was simpler than exorcism.
lol, i possessed a dog once! in fact i still do, he is in the yard rite nyao.
seriously tho, wasn’t the dog just bonkers? animals acting feral is kinda normal... but if the dog was like, standing on two feet and demanding to have tea with the queen... well i'd say that’s grounds for thinking its possessed O_o unless it was an english bulldog or something.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
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Re: The paranormal!

#45

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Animew wrote:that’s actually a pretty nice analogy. but to use that analogy, you only assume an elephant would not fit in there because you assume you understand the nature of the cupboard. can you truly say you understand the world to the extent that you can rule out the ethereal without a doubt?
If the doubt is small enough it doesn't matter. For us the provisionally accept paranormal phenomena, the doubt would have to be proportionate with the size of the phenomenon. Paranormal phenomena would require a huge amount of doubt, the doubt is infinitesimally tiny. The World of Everyday Experience, In One Equation We have a pretty good, if not complete, understanding of the physics of everything we encounter. There is no space where paranormal phenomena could fit and there is reliable evidence to suggest that our understanding has ever been violated. It is extremely safe to rule out paranormal phenomena entirely.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: The paranormal!

#46

Post by Galahad »

Animew wrote:very true. but it swings both ways, if you assert a claim that something does not exist, the responsibility to disprove it rests on you.
I agree, but it would be purposeless and naive to assert that something certainly does not exist. :P What skeptics tend to do is not to assert that something - whether it be God or ghosts - does not exist with absolute certainty; instead, they scrutinize the evidence given for the existence of something. If it is not convincing, they dismiss it as unproven and therefore not worthy of belief, rather than stating it definitely does not exist. To put it simply, "I will believe only when you give me a good enough reason to," not "I will believe the opposite for as long as you are unable to prove your argument."

I am uncomfortable with Rakuen's assertion that "we have a pretty good, if not complete, understanding of the physics of everything we encounter", as many frontiers of physics that would include everyday phenomena, including light and gravity, are still under debate and raise more questions with each answer... but I agree that - for practical purposes - one can rule out the paranormal as human folklore defines it because of how far our understanding of the universe has progressed.
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Re: The paranormal!

#47

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Animew wrote:very true. but it swings both ways, if you assert a claim that something does not exist, the responsibility to disprove it rests on you.
It’s the old spaghetti-monster argument.
If someone says “You cannot prove something does not exist”, you can use their own logic against them and say “Prove that the spaghetti-monster does not exist”.

Or something like that.

And there is the whole logic mambo jumbo about you can use positive and negative results to build a theory on a phenomenon but you cannot use the same technique on something that you claim “should not exist”. (Although I hear scientist do sometimes try)
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Re: The paranormal!

#48

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Image
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
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Re: The paranormal!

#49

Post by Animew »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: If the doubt is small enough it doesn't matter. For us the provisionally accept paranormal phenomena, the doubt would have to be proportionate with the size of the phenomenon. Paranormal phenomena would require a huge amount of doubt, the doubt is infinitesimally tiny. The World of Everyday Experience, In One Equation We have a pretty good, if not complete, understanding of the physics of everything we encounter. There is no space where paranormal phenomena could fit and there is reliable evidence to suggest that our understanding has ever been violated. It is extremely safe to rule out paranormal phenomena entirely.
you know they said similar things about the holocaust in germany when that was happening... i'd say you'd either have to be extremely naive or just a very trusting person to believe that your understanding of the world is accurate when it’s based entirely on the understanding of others. how do you know for sure they were not simply lax in their process or that they are not simply lying to you to push their own agenda?

rakuen, you seem very knowledgeable but ask yourself where that knowledge comes from. books? the internet? university? at the end of the day, all that you think is Knowles is just stuff other people said.
<w< and as history have shown, people have consistently been able to tell some pretty convincing lies and no matter how big or absurd... people believed them. i urge you to question convention bro, most of the old books on science urges us to do that very thing.
Splicer-Fox wrote:spaghetti-monster
NYAHAHAHA! i just knew someone was going to mention the spaghetti monster in response to that!
The thing is you can’t prove or disprove anything to %100 certainty as galahad mentioned. you can only find out aspects (often mistaken for facts) about something and draw a conclusion on how plausible or implausible something is. for example, electricity: does it exist or doesn’t it exist? you see it doing stuff. you can to a large extent explain how it does stuff and you think you know what it is so you can with some certainty say it’s quite plausible that it does in fact exist. Owo but what if what you know as electricity is actually the coincidental byproduct of something else? what you know to be electricity might not exist in the sense you understand it to.
as unlikely as that may seem <w< you don’t actually know for sure until you know everything there is to know about everything, so ruling it out completely would not be accurate.
Galahad wrote:for practical purposes - one can rule out the paranormal as human folklore defines it because of how far our understanding of the universe has progressed.
lol, no point in trying bro! ^w^" i'm afraid we pretty much agree on this topic so i doubt we'll have much of a debate this time.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
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Re: The paranormal!

#50

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Animew wrote:i'd say you'd either have to be extremely naive or just a very trusting person to believe that your understanding of the world is accurate when it’s based entirely on the understanding of others. how do you know for sure they were not simply lax in their process or that they are not simply lying to you to push their own agenda?
Because I can hold in my hand a device which can let me talk to anyone anywhere on the planet, record HD video and pictures, connect to the internet, show me my location by connecting to satellites, has more processing power than my laptop from a few years ago and so on? That all only works because the understanding behind my cell phone is correct. That understanding covers optics, electronics, relativity and more.
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Re: The paranormal!

#51

Post by Hargan »

I have a different approach to this debate. Yes, I know I said I wouldn't, but I decided to.

Does dark matter exist or not?

Because there are theories proving it does exist, others proving it doesn't. At the end of the day, until we can actually get a hold of it, or prove without a shred of doubt it is not in existence, we can't tell if it does or doesn't. But right now, it's a belief over whether it does or doesn't, a belief held within a scientific area.

A belief called a theory.

Now, until it is either proven to exist or not, it will act as a certain cat, both existing and not, being blamed for cosmic effects, and not.

You may argue that science tries to prove it does or doesn't exist. I agree with you, 100%. Science totally does that.

And so do those who believe in the supernatural. They try to prove it using effects that correlate throughout different hauntings (high EMF readings, EVP's, etc). Each group tries different things, but certain things seem to correlate towards these events. As such, they keep searching for and keeping track of such things, just like.... interestingly enough, astrologers. Funny that.

Now, until we either have, in our proverbial hands, a piece of dark matter or a ghost, we will not have pure proof either exist. There will always be doubts, questions, and queries.

And that's the beauty of being human: trying to make sense of the unknown.

So does either exist? Well, it's up to you to read the science and scientific methods behind both queries, and remember to scrutinise both for and against arguments and don't just read to validate your own ideas, and then finally, come to a conclusion yourself.
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Re: The paranormal!

#52

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Except there's a major difference. From what I understand the idea of dark matter came because when scientists were looking at galaxies and other massive objects they found they were moving as though they had more matter (and gravity) than they should have. That is an objective observation that is open to everyone, in this case at least those with the technology. Paranormal investigations are not based on objective observations open to everyone. In fact sometimes they are explicitly subjective. For example when when dowsers are put through trials and fail to detect water more than would be expected by chance they say it does work but it can't be tested. And the paranormal doesn't advance in any sense. New things might get made up but if you go back 500 or 1000 years, people will know just as much about ghosts as they do now.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
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Re: The paranormal!

#53

Post by Animew »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Because I can hold in my hand a device which can let me talk to anyone anywhere on the planet, record HD video and pictures, connect to the internet, show me my location by connecting to satellites, has more processing power than my laptop from a few years ago and so on? That all only works because the understanding behind my cell phone is correct. That understanding covers optics, electronics, relativity and more.
*sigh* silly fire puppy, since when did using something become the same as understanding something?
sure you can use a force but that doesn’t mean you necessarily understand it. people were doing genetic engineering LONG before they even knew what cells or even heredity was. (lol, where you think corn, dogs or corndogs came from?) same with electricity, folks were using it before they really knew wtf it was. what’s to say the same doesn’t hold true to magic or spiritual forces? just because we don’t know what it is now doesn’t mean we should just accept it as bullshit because a "smart people" said so. you might argue "then why don’t people use magic and stuff?" but how do you know they aren’t? what you see is just a small fraction of what actually happens in the world, try to keep that in mind when passing judgment on the universe ey.
Hargan wrote: Does dark matter exist or not?
that’s actually a pretty good example, people can see stuff happening in the galaxy and they can essentially just make guesses about what causes what they see, regardless of how educated those guesses are so it’s not so different from ghosts. people see shit flying around and moving on their own so they make a guess that it’s ghosts. (they are influenced by popular notions that ghosts can do that, just like scientists are influenced by the popular notion that matter explains mass/gravity)
so if people want to bitch about the paranormal <w< they should try getting into theoretical physics... tiz just as bitch worthy...
Hargan wrote:So does either exist? Well, it's up to you to read the science and scientific methods behind both queries, and remember to scrutinise both for and against arguments and don't just read to validate your own ideas, and then finally, come to a conclusion yourself.
i like you. you should come over to my house and yiff my sister.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:an objective observation that is open to everyone, in this case at least those with the technology.
so... not open to everyone...
last i checked, if you wanted to go make observations of your own about ghosts and shiz you can freely do that. personally i think looking for ghosts in haunted houses would be a silly way to go about finding ghosts tho.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: the paranormal doesn't advance in any sense. New things might get made up but if you go back 500 or 1000 years, people will know just as much about ghosts as they do now.
pfft, oh c'mon rakuen! you can’t possibly presume to know that. you think because you don’t hear about people making advances in the field that there are no advances being made? don’t be so arrogant.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
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Re: The paranormal!

#54

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Animew Stop what you are doing!
You cannot come between Rakuen and his stiff view of reality!
All this will result in is another IQ comparison to reaffirm his superior inelegance to us dumb dumbs.
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Re: The paranormal!

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Post by Cape_F0X »

The only way to convince him is to make a fully functional voodoo doll.

We're need to aquire some Rakuen hairs and mail them to RavenSong.
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Re: The paranormal!

#56

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

>.> And yet some people posting here were also outraged by the views expressed in the sciencemustfall video and presumably wouldn't hesitate to point out that rejecting vaccinations or global warming is crazy. I guess paranormal ghosts are fine but paranormal calling-down-lightning is crazy talk.
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Re: The paranormal!

#57

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Before I lost interest in that thread I was going to suggest that they should equip their Sangomas with Tessela/Ion cannon weapons.
It is said that technology makes us more like wizards in the eyes of someone who does not understand.
Perhaps we are the paranormal! Dun Dun duuuuuuun…..
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Re: The paranormal!

#58

Post by Galahad »

Watching from the sidelines with popcorn has been fun, but perhaps it is time for me to rejoin the debate.
Animew wrote:sure you can use a force but that doesn’t mean you necessarily understand it. people were doing genetic engineering LONG before they even knew what cells or even heredity was. (lol, where you think corn, dogs or corndogs came from?) same with electricity, folks were using it before they really knew wtf it was. what’s to say the same doesn’t hold true to magic or spiritual forces? just because we don’t know what it is now doesn’t mean we should just accept it as bullshit because a "smart people" said so. you might argue "then why don’t people use magic and stuff?" but how do you know they aren’t? what you see is just a small fraction of what actually happens in the world, try to keep that in mind when passing judgment on the universe ey.
Perhaps because if we were to compare the success rate between, as an example, modern medicine and medical witchcraft, we'd find they are far from equal in the cases that can be found. Even if we suspend our disbelief and dare to believe in magical forces, I'd still choose modern medicine purely because it has proven itself to be the most practically effective. Also, if I wished to kill someone, firearms would likely be far more effective than impaling a voodoo doll with pins or casting a curse. (Psst. I have no intention whatsoever of harming anyone. ;)) If I wished to change the weather (which would be expensive and uneconomical), I'd likely seed the clouds with silver iodide, dry ice and potassium iodide which will probably make it rain, rather than do a rain dance and chant spells - because the former has worked before.

This is unlike the genetic engineering and electricity you mentioned, whose early uses showed promise and a degree of success which are documented even to this day. Thus, even ignoring what I believe to be lacklustre explanations, magic on its own has not shown itself to be useful or effective in any meaningful way. Where are the miraculous cures? Where are the mysterious murders from black magic that puzzle morticians? Over 100 billion people have died on Earth - where are all the spirits, the ghosts, the phantoms that could be summoned? Why can weather be predicted moderately accurately a few hours in advance - where are the weather-changing spells? Even if these should exist in some hidden niche of the Earth, it would still not be very effective considering how many people talk about it and claim to practice it; any possibility for truth gets lost in the sea of lies, hoaxes and ruses. Thus, I stick with what is not necessarily perfect, but what has proven to be in most cases decently effective - medicine, technology, science. This, rather than trying to find the hidden niche where these spells and miracles could or could not be happening.

Not because I am some badass skeptic nerd... but just because I would want the best for myself and for those around me. :) And so I stick with the path that is proven to work most of the time, rather than find an allegedly hidden path that may or may not exist which so many have claimed to have found but have failed to prove.

(Oh, and I am not picking on you, Animew. :P However, I just felt the need to contribute.)
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Re: The paranormal!

#59

Post by Hargan »

Rakuen: Dowsing rods? Eh, I don't quite follow them. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. I can't tell.

What I can, and am talking about, is the scientific proof that comes from similar supernatural events that have been recorded. I watch ghost shows and, out of everything, would fucking love to go on a hunt with proper equipment. Prove once and for all, to myself, that it might be real. I'm as much a skeptic as you are, and believe me when I say, I would love for concrete evidence, if only for myself.

Secondly: "were made by observations..." According to the theory I heard about, and an errata on my part this video talks about dark matter and dark energy, the idea is that those who used to find those observations were looking at the results wrong, all because of the fact that the universe may be differently shaped. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UNLgPIiWAg Fun video, recommend a watch. Anywho, the point being here is that there is a lot we get wrong. There is a lot we get right. and there is still a lot to discover.

And I wish it to be discovered using the scientific method. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work. Why is that? Well, there's still a lot to discover. Let's face it: when someone makes a mistake and thinks a particle moved FTL, or that a bumblebee can't fly (both of which are disproven, please stop using the second), it comes down to the fact that there's human error. But when we find something we can't explain, with visible evidence, and more and more evidence and scientific "events" keep popping up around things like haunted places and such, visible accurate readings of cold spots, shadows, etc... Isn't it time that a proper full on scale investigation, to try prove once and for all whether all this stuff is real or not is set up.

But no, instead, it is merely brushed off instead.

Why?

This could be an amazing find, except it is only "crackpots" who look out to do these things. Why? For all we know, we might discover something new about the human brain's method of working, or, god forbid, prove that there is something more.

I think it's the fear of finding out that keeps skeptics from doing such experiments on a scale that isn't personal.

Also, funny how the skeptics work on personal scales to debunk it, but that's enough to debunk it :P

Edit: I will only be talking about what I know about, spirituality, or as others put it, ghosts 'n stuff, because I have no evidence any of the other stuff works.
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Re: The paranormal!

#60

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Phone post, please excuse mistakes.

Hargan, that's just not true. These things are studied but the studies just get ignored.

For example just searching ghost research brings up an article that in Switzerland they were able to create the feeling of there being ghostly presences. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016 ... xperiment/

Research has also found that the haunting sensation in some cases was likely caused by ultra low frequency sounds which create a feeling of unease. http://www.cracked.com/article_18828_th ... tings.html

The situation is even more clear when it comes to alternative medicine. Things like homeopathy and acupuncture have been studied so much that done people say further research on the topic is an irresponsible waste of money. The results have been clear. The Australian health services did a review of over 200 research articles on homeopathy and found it is not effective for any condition. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... port-finds this isn't surprising because the purported mechanism for homeopathy also makes no sense. But there are people even on this forum that believe it works.

Sceptics aren't afraid of these things. James Randi has a million dollar prize for anyone that could demonstrate a paranormal phenomena under controlled conditions. It's just that they've been tested so many times that there's no point constantly investigating them. That's not helped by biased reporting. When one group thought they had found ESP everyone made a fuss about it and talked about it. When the work failed to be replicated and it turned out that ESP doesn't exist, nobody cared to talk about that. http://www.badscience.net/2011/04/i-for ... s-problem/
And a later meta analysis of 10 replication (these things are tested) also shows we don't have ESP. https://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shor ... st-of.html
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