Novel Brainstorming

Have a flair for poetry, stories, or even write songs? Need some advice or looking for a beta-reader? This is the place for you!

Moderator: Erdwolf_TVL

Post Reply
User avatar
Contrast
Necrotic Neurotic
Posts: 4696
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:06 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Necrobat
Contact:

Novel Brainstorming

#1

Post by Contrast »

Hey guys. As most of you probably know, I've launched into the new year by starting a brand new novel. Nothing is set in stone yet, but I'm thinking it's going to be a fantasy novel, mostly drama, but maybe some light comedy elements, too.

Now here's the thing. There are a few issues I'm unsure about, and I would really like to hear some opinions on this.

First off, modern language and slang/profanity in a fantasy setting. How do you guys feel about this? Back when I was writing Ander there were so many times I wished I could just let loose and have my characters yell "Fuck you!" at each other. This has happened to me before in a previous novel, too, and I hated that feeling of restriction, of having to pause for a minute to think up some old-timey line like: "Are you touched in the head, you fool!?" when what I really wanted to say was something more along the lines of: "Did you go batshit, you stupid fuck!?"

I've only been working on the new novel for two weeks now, and I fully intended to stick to the more traditional, old-timey, believable way of speaking for these characters, but then, purely on a whim, I decided to relax a bit and just have them swear up a storm in modern vernacular. I was amazed to find that I was having a ton of fun incorporating modern language into a fantasy setting and mixing it with completely made-up words and phrases. It allowed me to have my characters say stuff like this:

"Good morning, Bob."

"Nah, I was having a good morning until some Humie decided to come in here and stink up the place with his Hume fumes, so why don't you do us all a favour and fuck right off?"

"You don't exactly smell of roses yourself, buddy."

"'The fuck would you know? Humies can't smell for shit!"

OMG I love it. :mrgreen:

But what do you guys think about this? Does modern word usage make a fantasy setting feel more comfortable and relatable, or does it ruin the illusion of an alternate world? I'd really like to hear your thoughts. :)

That was the first issue. The next is that all-time heavy-weight groaner of a headache that seems to plague every single writer every single time they try to write just about anything: NAMES! Fuck me, NAAAAAMES!! D:

I realise this makes me sound like a lazy-ass motherfucker, but I've been banging my head against the wall for two weeks now and I fear I might be millimeters away from breaking a porthole into my neighbour's kitchen.

I don't want anyone to actually expend any effort on this, but if somebody just so happens to have a random flash of inspiration, please let me know.
The bleeding won't stop... :/

Character the first.
Middle-aged dude. Beard. I kind of see him as a Sean Bean type. Just imagine Boromir as an alcoholic who suffers from PTSD (he's gone through some real heavy shit). Right now I'm using "John" as a place-holder name, but that just feels so uninspired.

Character the second.
Young Dark Elf girl. About ten or eleven. Lives in a slum. Really filthy. Wears rags. Begs and steals. Originally I thought of naming her "Delphi", but then I realised: "Wait, 'Delphi'? Delf? Dark Elf? That's Monster Musume levels of punny naming!" D:

So yeah. She needs a name.

That's it for now. If anything else crops up (and I'm sure it will) I'll add it to the thread.

PS: Once again, I'd just like to reiterate that I don't want anyone to go out of their way to try and think up names for these characters (that's my job, after all), however, if you already happen to have some names rolling around in your brain, just taking up space, I wouldn't mind taking them off your hands. ;) (Lol, I sound like a new mom begging the neighbours for baby clothes. :lol: )

Any opinions or feedback on the language issue would also be greatly appreciated, of course.

Thank you! :D
Read my novel on: SoFurry | Fur Affinity | Deviant Art
User avatar
Rakuen Growlithe
Fire Puppy
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:24 pm
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Growlithe (pokemon)
Region: Other
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: Novel Brainstorming

#2

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

I'm not a big of fan of swearing so I would be in favour of leaving it out. Besides, that gives you space to play with more interesting and/or original insults than the same old words we see in a bunch of modern media. Yeah, "fuck off" gets the point across but every Tom, Dick, Harry and their talking dog has used it.

"Good morning, Bob."
"Nah, I was having a good morning until some Humie decided to come in here and stink up the place with his Hume fumes, so why don't you do us all a favour and paint the cliffside with your entrails?"
"You don't exactly smell of roses yourself, buddy."
"'I doubt the smell of a rose could ever penetrate your stench. Is it the law that every Humie washes themself with the contents of an outhouse or is that just something you do for pleasure?"

I am completely incapable of helping with naming characters. I can never seem to think of any.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
User avatar
Contrast
Necrotic Neurotic
Posts: 4696
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:06 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Necrobat
Contact:

Re: Novel Brainstorming

#3

Post by Contrast »

I hear you.

I think, ultimately, it depends on the specific character. Just like in real life, some people try to be more creative with their insults, while others just settle for a good loud "Fuck off!"

Context matters, too. The way a bunch of nobles speak to each other in an upper-class villa, for example, would differ greatly from two uneducated drunkards arguing over cards in a sleazy tavern. It depends on the situation.

Something else to consider is wordcount and pacing. When it comes to writing a novel, you oftentimes need to convey a message or feeling in as few words as possible, and swearing usually saves a lot of words, which allows the plot to move forward at a faster pace. The example you gave (I really liked it, btw, so please don't think this is me dissing you, I'm just pointing something out) uses 29 more words to convey essentially the same thing. Whether that's good or bad depends on the importance of the conversation, whether the stuff they're talking about is relevant to the main plot, or just something to add a little spice to the background.

It can go both ways, though. You could certainly fill up an entire page with nothing but vulgar swearing, and conversely you could also have a witty bon mot of a single sentence.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 pm every Tom, Dick, Harry and their talking dog has used it.
I think that's what makes it good, though. Really good dialogue is the kind that resonates with the reader. If it's something familiar, something they recognise from their own personal experience, then they are more likely to get absorbed in the story and empathise with the characters because they can see themselves within that particular situation.

Also, have you ever heard the types of arguments that happen in the middle of the street at 2AM over here? This is going to sound ridiculous, but I swear I'm not making this up. This is what I often hear going on outside my window in the early hours:

"Jou ma se p***!"
"Ek n** jou ma se p***!!"
"Jou k***gevreet!"
"Jou ma se p*** is vrot jou n**!!"

Personally, I love swearing. It feels natural and realistic to me, but I admit that might be because I tend to swear a lot in my head whenever I'm thinking (that's just how my inner dialogue works). I also grew up in an environment where everyone around me was constantly swearing; friends, family, teachers, strangers, just about everybody. So whenever I hear a very long, waffling insult that basically amounts to "fuck you" it always sounds forced and unnatural to me, like the guy was trying too hard. I end up thinking: "If you want to say 'fuck you', just say 'fuck you' and get it over with."

In the end, I guess it depends mostly on what type of story you're trying to tell. The "vibe" of the thing.
Read my novel on: SoFurry | Fur Affinity | Deviant Art
User avatar
Trace
Snep's Best Doggo
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:44 pm
Gender: Female
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Wolfdog/Shapeshifter
Region: Other
Location: Lincoln, NE

Re: Novel Brainstorming

#4

Post by Trace »

When it comes to swearing in fantasy, I would have to agree with you. Honestly I think I get taken out of things when a writer uses a really long-winded or contrived insult, or tries to make something sound "old-timey" for a fantasy setting. Have your characters say what they mean. If you must deviate from modern swearing, come up with replacement words that serve the same purpose. They can be made up or pulled from older times, but they have to be consistent and real-sounding. Punchy, short exclamations make more sense than paragraphs. Alternatively, if you want to avoid the issue altogether and the swearing itself doesn't really add anything, you can always use something like "he/she swore". It never really stands out, and allows the reader to use their imagination a bit.

As far as names go, I've found that the best way to come up with compelling names for characters is to go language diving. For starters, if you have a certain ethnic setting in mind, consider looking up names from that culture. Also try playing with sounds, and find variations on things. Think of it as a puzzle. Some of my favorite names for characters have come from me coming up with a general idea for a name in my head, and then delving into the roots and origins of the words behind them. I think it's really cool when you can come across a name that means something you didn't expect, especially when it can be used to say something about the character it is being used for. Names can be like a story in themselves. I guess the best advice I can offer is to have fun with finding them, and try not to force them. When I come across the right name for a character, I usually know that I have done so.

If we look at your placeholder names, I can give you an idea of what I mean. Take the name "John". A quick Googling of "John name meaning" gives us the following:
English form of Iohannes, the Latin form of the Greek name Ιωαννης (Ioannes), itself derived from the Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן (Yochanan) meaning "YAHWEH is gracious", from the roots יוֹ referring to the Hebrew God and חָנַן meaning "to be gracious".
From here, we can go in a myriad of directions. You could notice that Iohannes looks a lot like the name Johan, and you could investigate that name further. You could try shortening one of the names, going from Yochanan to "Yochan" or even just "Yoch". You could decide to see what forms of "John" there are in other languages. All of these directions came from looking into this one, rather bland sounding name. That said, having a "regular" name isn't always a bad thing, depending on the setting.
So that is my advice for coming up with compelling names, based on my findings in more recent years: have some fun with it. :3
I don't know what your setting is like, but if you want some offhand recommendations, here are a few:
John: Yahn, Ain, Jash, Yohas
Delphi: Del, Delilah, Delphine, Phila, Adeli
These are pretty much just off the top of my head or from looking them up. Anyway, I hope this rant helps a bit. Let me know if you find any of what I've said above useful.
"I change shapes just to hide in this place, but I'm still, I'm still an animal" -Miike Snow, 'Animal'
"Where there's life, there's hope."-Terence
Leeward
Recalcitrant Ruminant
Posts: 7036
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Novel Brainstorming

#5

Post by Leeward »

Alternatively, you could have them swear using lore-specific curses, or another language. I think Firefly did this brilliantly with "gorram" and random Chinese.

Also I have names for your two characters: Hopper and Eleven. :P Sorry, was the first thing that came to mind.
User avatar
Contrast
Necrotic Neurotic
Posts: 4696
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:06 am
Gender: Male
Sexual preference: Straight
Species: Necrobat
Contact:

Re: Novel Brainstorming

#6

Post by Contrast »

Trace wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:32 am Honestly I think I get taken out of things when a writer uses a really long-winded or contrived insult, or tries to make something sound "old-timey" for a fantasy setting. Have your characters say what they mean.
I know, right? "Kindly remove your person from my proximity, you blithering slubberdegulion!" will never beat "Piss off, bitch!" in a fight. :P
That's not to say that long-winded insults have no place in fiction, though. It depends on the character's personality and mannerisms. An uptight knight, for example, maybe really would say something like: "Kindly remove your person from my proximity, you blithering slubberdegulion!" and consider it a scathing insult, whereas a lowly guttersnipe would just flip him the finger and tell him to go fuck his horse.

Ooh, I should remember that one.
*Jots down note.*
Trace wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:32 am If you must deviate from modern swearing, come up with replacement words that serve the same purpose. They can be made up or pulled from older times, but they have to be consistent and real-sounding.
Leeward wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:49 am Alternatively, you could have them swear using lore-specific curses, or another language.
I immediately thought of the Thief series and it's hilarious use of the word "taff".
"There better not be any taffers taffin' around down here!" :lol:
Trace wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:32 am Thoughts on names.
I agree, and I went through a very similar process when I came up with the names for Ander. "Ander" was derived from the Afrikaans word "anders" which just means "different" (which is also what Ander's name literally means in the novel). "Bethany" was named after the biblical city of Bethany, which was renowned for healing (it's also where Lazarus was resurrected).

Maybe the reason I can't figure out the names for my characters is because I don't know them well enough yet? I've only worked on this manuscript for two weeks, so maybe, as the story progresses, I'll have more concrete information to base a name off of.

The problem is, I actually really like the name "Delphi", but a Dark Elf named "Delphi" is just so damn punny! It's almost as bad as "Elfo" from Disenchantment! >.<
Trace wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:32 am Anyway, I hope this rant helps a bit. Let me know if you find any of what I've said above useful.
Your rant was a big help, thanks. I think I'll continue to use the placeholder names for a while, and then, once I know the characters a bit better, I'll try to find them names that match up with who they are on the inside.
Read my novel on: SoFurry | Fur Affinity | Deviant Art
User avatar
Trace
Snep's Best Doggo
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:44 pm
Gender: Female
Sexual preference: Bi
Species: Wolfdog/Shapeshifter
Region: Other
Location: Lincoln, NE

Re: Novel Brainstorming

#7

Post by Trace »

Awesome, I'm glad it helped. ^.^
Contrast wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:45 pm The problem is, I actually really like the name "Delphi", but a Dark Elf named "Delphi" is just so damn punny! It's almost as bad as "Elfo" from Disenchantment! >.<
Sometimes, I think it's best to go with the name that you think works best, even if it may seem silly to you as the author. I doubt I would have drawn the connection between dark elf and Delphi if you hadn't said anything about it. And it really isn't nearly as bad as "Elfo". :P
But I do agree, learning more about the characters may help a lot with figuring out their names. Give it time, and take a step back from thinking about it, if necessary. I'm sure they'll come to you eventually. :3
"I change shapes just to hide in this place, but I'm still, I'm still an animal" -Miike Snow, 'Animal'
"Where there's life, there's hope."-Terence
Post Reply