Discord?

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Would you like the ZAFur discord server to be made public?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:57 pm

Yes
10
67%
No
0
No votes
I don't mind either way
5
33%
 
Total votes: 15
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Discord?

#1

Post by Valerion »

The admins have been using Discord for a little while to coordinate actions, as it tends to be faster-flowing than the forum. I've also looked at Telegram (specifically a CR Telegram group), but in the end we decided on Discord. If I were to make the ZAFur Discord server generally available, is it something the community would like to use? Alternatively we will likely use it for staff-only purposes.

I decided to run a poll until the end of the month to see what the members think.
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Re: Discord?

#2

Post by Galahad »

I am in favour of it. It would be a suitable successor to the IRC in terms of the de facto ZAFur instant chat, and would be preferred.
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Re: Discord?

#3

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Galahad wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:06 pm I am in favour of it. It would be a suitable successor to the IRC in terms of the de facto ZAFur instant chat, and would be preferred.
Image
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Re: Discord?

#4

Post by Leeward »

Oh the irony... How many "official" SA furry discord servers are there now? There are like 4 that I know of already.

Speaking of, I thought I remembered some mention of comments on the petition thread submitted by PM to the admin group (and replies) being posted on the thread by proxy because of the thread lock... Am I misremembering?
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Re: Discord?

#5

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

It doesn't make sense to say there's an official South African furry server. It does make sense to say there's a ZA Fur official server. Currently there is no official, public presence of the forum on Discord.
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Re: Discord?

#6

Post by Kievvu »

Coulda sworn there already was one that had the name and the forum logo and everything?
Also there are already so many servers run by local furs...I mean I'm in 8 and I can think of atleast 7 other ones.
Althought of the 8 I'm in only two are active and that isn't very often even though there's a lot of people on them. I think it becomes a bit...I dunno...redundant? to have so many servers for one community,where you just end up with the same people on all the servers. Some of them are bound to be almost or completely dead servers.

Also that comic posted earlier kinda reminds me of how a lot of local furs are on Telegram and there's too many local groups on there to even count but there's still a pretty sizeable group who insist on still using Whatsapp and not being on Telegram at all.
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Re: Discord?

#7

Post by Leeward »

Kievvu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:30 pm Coulda sworn there already was one that had the name and the forum logo and everything?
Yup, there was. Rakuen made them change it when he found out it existed and he wasn't in charge.
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Re: Discord?

#8

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Seriously? You've already been told that's not true.

Yes, there was a server using the forum name and logo which it did not have permission to use.
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Re: Discord?

#9

Post by Kievvu »

Ah, I found it and I'm now having a giggle coz it's been up since August last year and there's posts about it on the forum but the "Officials" (No offense intended. I dunno what else to call them since I just woke up and brain is still sleepy) only caught wind of it like a week ago
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Re: Discord?

#10

Post by Valerion »

Kievvu wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:33 am Ah, I found it and I'm now having a giggle coz it's been up since August last year and there's posts about it on the forum but the "Officials" (No offense intended. I dunno what else to call them since I just woke up and brain is still sleepy) only caught wind of it like a week ago
We have no problems with furs advertising other community services here. We are a big community and should be working together. As a result we don't check every mention of an external service, unless we'd be interested in joining. Sometimes you trust other furs to be fair. And some of them even are.

In this case we objected to the copyright infringement and implied association, not anything else.
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Re: Discord?

#11

Post by Ryall »

Kievvu, the discord groups are various clique groups where friends and friends of friends are added. I myself have a server like this, and am part of servers like this.

An official ZAFur server would be advertised on this site, so that any newcomers who enjoy being on the ZAFur forum could simply join the ZAFur server, by virtue of being a member on this site. You wouldn't have to first befriend anyone to get in.

The culture would be different to say, another furry server, in that the ZAFur rules and policies would apply; it would be advertised on this site; and it would have the full mix of personalities we see on this site, there.

While, for example, another fur could advertise their discord server on this website, I might not want to join that server, just because I don't like that fur.

ZAFur is not the same thing as the South African furry fandom. It is it's own privately funded group with its own agenda. It has a brand, regardless of whether you think it is a good brand or a bad one. It's not unreasonable for the admin team here has exclusive rights to that brand, and don't want others to use it.

You want to start your own South African furry group? Go ahead. Imagine how absurd it would be if you started a Telegram group called, "Kievvu's Group," and then I started a Discord Group called "Kievvu's Group," which you weren't a member of, and then when you protested, I responded, "you're just mad you're not in charge of the Discord server."

If you are going to make passive-aggressive remarks, at least think them through.
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Re: Discord?

#12

Post by Kievvu »

Valerion wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:53 am
We have no problems with furs advertising other community services here. We are a big community and should be working together. As a result we don't check every mention of an external service, unless we'd be interested in joining. Sometimes you trust other furs to be fair. And some of them even are.

In this case we objected to the copyright infringement and implied association, not anything else.
So that would mean yall now need to go have a problem with the one Eylof just made coz it's called ZA Fur and has the forum logo :idea: :lol:
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Re: Discord?

#13

Post by Ryall »

Yes, of course. I suspect Eyloff just did that to troll, otherwise I don't see what point he is making. Is it that discord servers are so easy to make, why are we even discussing making one, when it would just take less effort to just make one? Perhaps, but then again, this is the help and suggestions forum, and the admin were probably just wanting to gauge interest before committing to moderate it and spend time on it. They were probably also looking for some suggestions and ideas (like the use bots and stuff).

Maybe it was a challenge? ZAFur won't issue a legal letter, but I don't think they are unreasonable to expect a little goodwill from the local community, by people respecting their request not to be copied.
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Re: Discord?

#14

Post by Faanvolla »

For your consideration:


Dear Discord Server Owners and Admins. If these are not your server settings, you are doing it wrong. Please fix it.

Thank you.
Image

Thank you.
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Re: Discord?

#15

Post by Valerion »

Ryall wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:44 pm Perhaps, but then again, this is the help and suggestions forum, and the admin were probably just wanting to gauge interest before committing to moderate it and spend time on it. They were probably also looking for some suggestions and ideas (like the use bots and stuff).
You hit the nail on the head. If there was no interest, then I wouldn't bother. There is some interest, so things will probably go ahead eventually.
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Re: Discord?

#16

Post by Leeward »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:58 pm Seriously? You've already been told that's not true.
Right, and based on my personal observation of events I don't believe you, so please prove me wrong instead of calling me a liar without justification.
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Re: Discord?

#17

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

Valerion wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:53 am
We have no problems with furs advertising other community services here. We are a big community and should be working together. As a result we don't check every mention of an external service, unless we'd be interested in joining. Sometimes you trust other furs to be fair. And some of them even are.

In this case we objected to the copyright infringement and implied association, not anything else.
@Leeward before you continue this conversation, maybe just check this response and see whether it clears up any issues?
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Re: Discord?

#18

Post by Leeward »

It doesn't make what actually happened any clearer, no. And what copyright? This site doesn't turn a profit so there's no valid grounds for protesting use of the branding.
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Re: Discord?

#19

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

Leeward wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:48 pm It doesn't make what actually happened any clearer, no. And what copyright? This site doesn't turn a profit so there's no valid grounds for protesting use of the branding.
Copyright was probably a catchall term for wont of a different term to look at. The issue that was brought forward was that it isn't necessarily an 'official' zafur discord server and we'd like to be able to have the option to set one up that would run under the same premise as the forum itself if there was a call.

Anyone can set up a discord server yes, but flying under the same banner when the rules of the forum aren't necessarily enforced may be cause for concern if people joined that discord and were treated in ways outside of the forum rules, thinking that it was the official zafur discord server.

So no, there's no real infringement but it also has more to do with the idea that the logo itself is creative property, at the very least, of the ZAfur forum and does reserve the right of use to that creative property and ask that it not be used without at least asking for that endorsement.

Does this seem to clear it up? If there are other questions in respect to this I'm more than willing to answer them but if you can, collect the issues pertaining this and we can deal with them in one message or at the very least as many as possible.
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Re: Discord?

#20

Post by Galahad »

What difference does it make? Regardless of who shut the group down, it is evident the staff did not approve of a group that claimed to represent them and the forum at the time. Which is fair. If I started a Discord group for the Furnace and branded it as official without your approval, Lee, I doubt you'd see it as unreasonable to be taken down. Not anyone can represent anything they choose and claim to be an official spokesman, host or representative. Your petition against Rakuen rode on that principle, as did the poll about Badge's position as CR.

Copyright or not, it is common courtesy.

Why the hell do these insignificant details matter to you?
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Re: Discord?

#21

Post by Leeward »

Fine, whatever. Still doesn't answer my initial question though. If Rakuen didn't request the Discord server's icon be changed, then who did? That matters to me because I hate being called a liar when I'm only relaying my interpretation of what I saw with my own eyes.

IMG_20180220_141820_268.jpg
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Re: Discord?

#22

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:13 pm Fine, whatever. Still doesn't answer my initial question though. If Rakuen didn't request the Discord server's icon be changed, then who did? That matters to me because I hate being called a liar when I'm only relaying my interpretation of what I saw with my own eyes.
Well I have no idea why he hasn't said so but to clear things up, Ivic did. I never contacted the channel. I was still waiting to hear from Valerion if he had given some sort of permission or not and Ivic just spoke directly to the server owner.
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Re: Discord?

#23

Post by Leeward »

Now why couldn't you have just said that from the beginning instead of publicly calling me a liar over an inaccuracy?
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Re: Discord?

#24

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Because you don't need to know. If someone is misrepresenting themselves using the forum's name and logo to the point where people erroneously think it to be official then there is a problem that should be dealt with. Who deals with it is pretty much irrelevant. However, you need to stop jumping to conclusions and spreading misinformation, especially when you have been explicitly told beforehand, in private, that you were mistaken. You took it public when you knowingly spread misinformation because you had already been informed that your conclusions were wrong.
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Re: Discord?

#25

Post by Cape_F0X »

And that's why I sleep on the right side of the bed, so I can't wake up on the wrong side.
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Re: Discord?

#26

Post by Leeward »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:41 pm Because you don't need to know. [...] Who deals with it is pretty much irrelevant.
That doesn't make sense. If your actions are collective, then how is attributing an action to one of you any different to saying all of you or some other admin did it? If it doesn't matter, then why nitpick over it and keep it secret? This is one of the reasons I keep saying there's a total lack of transparency.
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Re: Discord?

#27

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

The attribution is only a problem where you are trying to reframe something to fit your personal vendetta against me. For example, one has to wonder why you are trying to get involved in a matter that doesn't concern you. There was a point of disagreement between the forum and a Discord group which was resolved quickly and amicably. Then suddenly you're flinging accusations and trying to push your way into that is settled.
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Re: Discord?

#28

Post by Faanvolla »

So, its the 2nd, anything happening about this?
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Re: Discord?

#29

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

We had one fur on to check all the permissions and I believe it is ready, though I have to defer to Valerion as to when it will be officially opened.
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Re: Discord?

#30

Post by ArtyLoop »

Since I was present and somewhat involved in this incident I feel its time I spoke up.

Fact: I posted a link to that server where Rakuen could see it and see it, he did
Fact: I was present when Zagamun was told to change the logo
Fact: I asked Zagamun WTF happened afterwards
Fact: Zagamun said explicitly ZAFur told him to change the logo and he caved in and did it. I didn't ask who did it, because I fully suspected Rakuen did it. But, knowing a lot more about the man behind the Growlithe avatar of late, I have come to understand how things work behind the scenes. The site admin doesn't do things himself, he rather delegates these actions and so yes, Ivic was the one to do the deed.

I have been nonplussed for a while about this statement:
because you do not need to know
Well, as a member of this fandom, and someone who is a bit of a popfur, I might add, I, as do we all, have some kind of right to know. This is not the FBI, CIA, NSA or the military where we get kept on a "need to know" basis. Its exactly this kind of stuff that drives people away from ZAfur, you can go ask the furs themselves. I've done enough of that soul-searching to know the truth.
The attribution is only a problem where you are trying to reframe something to fit your personal vendetta against me. For example, one has to wonder why you are trying to get involved in a matter that doesn't concern you. There was a point of disagreement between the forum and a Discord group which was resolved quickly and amicably. Then suddenly you're flinging accusations and trying to push your way into that is settled.
The matter was somewhat publicly visible. Also this is not a personal vendetta here. If you want to see it that way, its your perogative. Leeward wants what most people want, what's best for the fandom.

I want you, today, to realize one thing Rakuen, your field of influence is very small. The majority of the furries I deal with on a daily basis either don't know who the fuck you are, or they simply repeat a line I have hear often which I am not going to repeat here. I have come to realize, and by your own admission that this place is indeed Rakuenia, and you know what, let it be.. just don't think you can exercise control over independent groups or individuals. The ZAfur logo and all that is not lodged at the CIPC office, if you have done so, then by all means, you can go off and nail those who use it. But right now I haven't seen you take ANY action against Shaun for the group he created which was in fact to piss you off.
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