ZA Furries

Good morning all.

After much thought on the subject of why ZAFur is stagnating so much, I've consulted with various members and ex-members over quite some time and I noticed a pattern that everybody seems to agree with but not have the courage to acknowledge or do anything about. As you may have guessed, I'm talking about Rakuen.

In an effort to make a stand in a rational and unemotional manner, I have compiled a list of reasons why he should not continue to administrate this site. This list I have provided as checkboxes on a petition to have Rakuen dismissed, which any signatories are free to leave unchecked should they disagree with any individual reason. I was going to compile the results thereof and rank the points by percentage of signatories who agreed, not present all points an unanimous.

At first I attempted to circulate this petition outside of ZAFur to gauge interest, as well as reach any former members who may have left for this exact reason. Given that it was deemed underhanded of me to do so anywhere other than where it is pertinent, it was removed. I find this rather hypocritical, since one of my reasons for not posting it here was the assumption that it would immediately be locked and/or removed, as such attempts have been in the past. The fact that it was removed elsewhere speaks volumes about how dissent is handled. Anyway I am now posting it here, since it was apparently said that it would not be removed.

Now I just want to clarify a couple things about petitions in general, given the amount of misunderstandings of the concept that arose after my first attempt.

• The idea behind a petition is that it does not come from any single person but is a collective message from all signatories. The identity of the organiser therefore does not matter, because in all likelihood their name will be among the signatories. Be that as it may, it was rather ironically taken as cowardly of me to circulate this anonymously.
• A petition by nature is voluntary: you do not have to sign if you disagree; it would therefore make no sense for it to allow a negative or null vote, since it would be directly counterproductive to the petition's goals. It is however perfectly reasonable to have an opposing petition for the opposite motion, given a willing organiser, enough people who vehemently disagree, and a compelling argument. Although this makes little sense when the alternative is to do nothing.
• Yes, it is possible to lie on the signature line. Obviously this is the case on any petition, which is why they generally include contact details for confirmation. This is why I specified on the form that signatures should be one's ZAFur username, or fursona name in the case of former members, in order for them to be reachable. When a petition is presented, all signatures are public, which means that anyone is free to check that their name was not put there against their will, and contest it. That is also why it is not possible to sign a petition anonymously.
• Sometimes the arguments can be subjective in nature. This does not make them any less valid if enough people agree.
• Once the petition has been presented, the recipient generally publicly responds to it and may then counter the points given. A petition is not an accusation, but a request for action with justification. It is up to the recipient to defend their choices.

Given this last point, I would like to urge the recipients to seriously consider their stance on the matter. Sometimes loyalty is misplaced and solidarity is undeserved, and a weak defending argument will only undermine their credibility.

The petition can be found here: https://goo.gl/forms/CO2RiqMwywXDL5K93
Please feel free to share the link to any sites and/or groups where former members, infrequent visitors and lurkers may reside.
Thank you.

I see someone is posting it here finally. When I found out about the petition I was furious, as

1) You have decided to drag the ZAFur issue through the outside world, where it should have been handled as an internal issue.
2) A petition drawn up like this means that you didn't even bother using the existing channels of communication. As an ex-staff member you should know what they all are.

I will leave this up for now. However, the slightest hint of a flame-war or unreasoned discussion will get this removed.

Ah, I was right when I suspected you were behind this.

It's a bit pathetic to try hide behind subjectivity when most of those "arguments" are just completely false and many are slander.

Valerion wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:23 am 1) You have decided to drag the ZAFur issue through the outside world, where it should have been handled as an internal issue.

That is irrelevant when ZAFur is the de facto hub of the SA fandom. I think it concerns all. Anybody with no interest can simply abstain.

2) A petition drawn up like this means that you didn't even bother using the existing channels of communication. As an ex-staff member you should know what they all are.

I do know what they are, yes. I also know that they don't work because they get ignored and postponed ad infinitum.

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:28 am It's a bit pathetic to try hide behind subjectivity when most of those "arguments" are just completely false and many are slander.

I have evidence to the contrary.

Im not a person who likes Rakuen or his ethics but I do think that if he is an admin he should be judged on his administrative qualities. If i had a vote here i would tell him to step down only if he was negligent in duty. I don't think any human is perfect so its not fair to remove someone based on negative press alone. So unless the forums survival depends on his removal I don't think this move will do much more then show us as in a negative light.

On the other hand its not too surprising that people don't want to be associated with Rakuens politics. He seemed to campaign a lot and In that way i feel he broke professional admin behaviour.

That being said i do think maybe a bit of fresher faces on the admin team could be useful.

Anyway thats my 2 cents here. I dont intend to debate. Just gave my feelings. Sorry if i cause any offence or anger. Thank you.

When criticism is silenced, trust and respect for authority is lost. And this petition, although containing some bias in the wording of its items, is still a channel for relevant public opinion. And Rakuen does have the opportunity to challenge it publicly if a slanderous allegation is raised.

As such, I see no problem with the petition itself, and would encourage anyone with an opinion on it to consider it. I will also be reading through it while trying to be unprejudiced, and tick off any items I think have merit.

"is a generally disagreeable person to interact with, which is counterproductive to a pleasant forum atmosphere."

Oh lulz... let's ban everyone then.

Sarcasm aside, I won't be signing the petition.

A good leader should lead by example, not sink to everyone else's level. But if you're fine with that, that's your prerogative.

Leeward wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am A good leader should lead by example, not sink to everyone else's level. But if you're fine with that, that's your prerogative.

Meh better than having a personal vendetta with someone wreck, rule & ruin my life, but hey - whatever you feel is a healthy outlet for your energy.

Such apathy is the reason the Zumas and Trumps of this world continue to reign. It doesn't affect me, therefore it's not a real problem.

If we could harvest and eat passive-aggression, you two alone would end world hunger.

Lee knows what she is doing, although I must personally admit I share Sudan's concerns about the effects on you, Lee. You're investing a lot of energy into this, and it's not done with condescension or patronisingly when we say that the resulting stress might not be good for you. It's simple concern - that the amount of strain is not worth it with the scale of the issue. And I believe that is what Sudan was saying.

Iirc people didn’t want Badge to be a ComRep because some of the reasons he was made one were because of actions and things he did off of Zafur,
Should things Rakuen did and say off of Zafur therefore be taken into account or ignored regarding this?
Just wondering about the precident(?) set before.

As for me, I’ll read it and check any if I agree.

Edit:
Point 1,
Re elections for mods/admins? Will turn into a popularity contest.
Annual Re-evaluations?
Can be held ‘internally’ and then the “public” can just be told
“Yeah he stays / No he goes”. Prob can’t be objective, and an independent 3rd party doesn’t exist
How are the admins even chosen? No one except Rak has been made one ever from what I remember, what even is the process / reason no one new has been added? No ‘suitable applicants’?

Leeward wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:36 pm Such apathy is the reason the Zumas and Trumps of this world continue to reign. It doesn't affect me, therefore it's not a real problem.

Rakuen is going to be the President of the Galaxy if we don't stop him saying mean things NOW? I shall practice my curtsey.

Since Galahad is a Good Person (TM), and I somewhat cares that he sees me in a good light even if I don't deserve it, I will say the following:
Lee. The road you are on leads to NOWHERE. There are no victories and no satisfaction at the end of it. You will alienate everyone - your foes and your friends alike.

I have been on this road. I speak from experience. I can't tell you what to do, and more likely than not, even if I do, you will not follow my advice.

Rakuen is not the issue here. You know he isn't. Address your issues. Reassess. You are running a negative campaign. How about YOU be that lead-by-example? How about YOU are the sympathetic person? How about YOU be an agreeable person who folks like to interact with? You might find that people will take up your banner more readily.

As for me - I will try to restrain my obvious disdain for your tactics. I am a direct person and prefer to tackle the bull by the horns (no pun intended). People are free to speak their minds & your petition might be a platform for the more timid among the herd.

I can't help but think you are setting Valerion up for failure either way.

(PS Rakuen, please be a dear & merge my posts if necessary? Thanks!)

Sudan Red wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:29 pm Lee. The road you are on leads to NOWHERE. There are no victories and no satisfaction at the end of it. You will alienate everyone - your foes and your friends alike.

I have been on this road. I speak from experience. I can't tell you what to do, and more likely than not, even if I do, you will not follow my advice.

I appreciate your concern. Really, no sarcasm. I'm well aware of the ramifications of what I'm doing, but if I don't at least try, I won't forgive myself. I can't just sit back and tolerate bullshit like this.

Rakuen is not the issue here. You know he isn't.

Preeeeetty sure he is. He's a reluctant admin at best and a power-abusing fuddy-duddy at worst. That's just my opinion though... but an awful lot of people seem to agree with it, at least when they're anonymous (*cough* *cough* Animew's most *cough* hated *cough* survey *cough* *cough* *cough* *hack* *die*).

How about YOU be that lead-by-example? How about YOU are the sympathetic person? How about YOU be an agreeable person who folks like to interact with? You might find that people will take up your banner more readily.

Did that, started off well enough and then due to multiple tragedies in my life abandoned it along with my will to live. Busy rekindling both though, and so far so good. It's a work in progress, kinda hard doing things properly.

I am a direct person and prefer to tackle the bull by the horns (no pun intended).

I don't see how that's not exactly what I'm doing, but if you say so.

People are free to speak their minds & your petition might be a platform for the more timid among the herd.

Like I said above, people are quick to point fingers when anonymous, but when it requires a name they suddenly become all shy. To those people I say: if you really mean what you say, then back it up. Your vote means nothing if you don't cast it: that's is how Brexit went through.

I can't help but think you are setting Valerion up for failure either way.

He kind of set himself up for failure by deferring to somebody nobody respects. I really don't understand why he continues to defend Rakuen. To me it just looks like:


(implying Valerion is Théoden, in case it wasn't obvious)

EDIT:
Oh, and

Faanvolla wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:42 pm Iirc people didn’t want Badge to be a ComRep because some of the reasons he was made one were because of actions and things he did off of Zafur,
Should things Rakuen did and say off of Zafur therefore be taken into account or ignored regarding this?
Just wondering about the precident(?) set before.

I agree, reputation matters regardless of where is was gained. Ignoring it in this case would be applying double standards.

Also it's "precedent".

OwO what’s this… so this is where everyone goes to have fun without me?
Seriously tho the prude cow may have a point. on multiple counts I’ve felt that Rakuen came down unnecessarily hard on new members. I don’t know about you but when the god damn admin of a website himself pops up to tell you you’re a piece of crap for a minor infringement people tend to be a little upset and will likely not come back to said website… I mean shit, do we not have moderators for this? Now I duno if making people feel unwelcome and generally alienated is what the management is going for but so far it’s pretty obvious this is the outcome.

Is Rakuen actually to blame for chasing off new members and making people lurk instead of posting?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I duno… but considering he is the only one doing the locking scolding and deleting of things I can’t really see it being anyone else.

Which begs the question… Owo what the hell is all the other staff for? I mean have you guys ever seen a moderating moderator on here? The community reps mess with posts sometimes but as far as I can tell Rakuen is like the sand box monarch of the place and has exclusive rights on doing stuff… ALL the stuff.
…what is up with that…

Rakuen Growlithe wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:28 am It's a bit pathetic to try hide behind subjectivity when most of those "arguments" are just completely false and many are slander.

“takes any and all criticism as a threat to his position”
Owo Dude, you walked right into that one.

Animew wrote:Which begs the question… Owo what the hell is all the other staff for? I mean have you guys ever seen a moderating moderator on here? The community reps mess with posts sometimes but as far as I can tell Rakuen is like the sand box monarch of the place and has exclusive rights on doing stuff… ALL the stuff.
…what is up with that…

I raised the issue of staff activity imbalance to Valerion yesterday, and he agreed to discuss it with the rest of the staff.

Yeeeaaahhh... I can see nothing sunk in. Oh well, I tried.

Laat hy val waar hy wil, ouens!

How long will this petition be running for, before the results are announced?

Who is paying the bills for the website?
Should they not have the last say?

I believe the stagnation is more caused by more convenient IM platforms.
(This can “perhaps” be helped a little by an app?)

I guess that wrestling visitors away from Zafar and sending them to a new website did not work as planned?
And I think the reason is … “Same shit different day”?
(not that I asked anybody – but I never really saw the benefit of the attempts to split the community up for politics)
If you want to talk about something controversial just go to any other South African furry group.
Perhaps this was also because the marketing campaign was full of cringe and bad feefees.

If people are willing to tolerate Rakuen it’s because the alternative is not appealing?
OR perhaps people don’t give a shit for why a beef was started with him in the first place?

I demand that the petition be set up or the current one be modified to include reasons why Rakuen should stay! Or I am denouncing for not being fair.
And also as a suggestion: should we not set up something similar for the accusers that want to push the “vote of no confidence”. (You know… just for interests sake)
I actually don’t want the furry fandom here to become a political place like this but it’s going to happen anyway, is it?

Whose next though?
Shall we tell Ryall to fuck off too?

Sudan Red wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:28 pm Yeeeaaahhh... I can see nothing sunk in. Oh well, I tried.

Well since you obviously know better, why are you still parading around on your high horse?

Valerion wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:20 pm How long will this petition be running for, before the results are announced?

No idea. Care to make a suggestion?

Splicer-Fox wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:19 am Who is paying the bills for the website?
Should they not have the last say?

Yes, and the Guptas should decide how the country is run. But since you mentioned it, that's another thing I have a serious issue with. Anoyomouse doesn't care about this site, and it's not like running it is expensive when you're squatting someone else (I presume his father)'s server (just WHOIS the domain if you don't believe me, it's public information). That really isn't the point of this petition though. If Anoyomouse cared to make a statement, he would have done so by now.

I guess that wrestling visitors away from Zafar and sending them to a new website did not work as planned?

I didn't wrestle anyone; people who came to the other forum did so entirely voluntarily, and it's not like you can't be on both. I was unable to keep it running for personal reasons.

I demand that the petition be set up or the current one be modified to include reasons why Rakuen should stay! Or I am denouncing for not being fair.

I'm not sure whether you're trolling or just can't be bothered to read.

Leeward wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:59 am A petition by nature is voluntary: you do not have to sign if you disagree; it would therefore make no sense for it to allow a negative or null vote, since it would be directly counterproductive to the petition's goals. It is however perfectly reasonable to have an opposing petition for the opposite motion, given a willing organiser, enough people who vehemently disagree, and a compelling argument. Although this makes little sense when the alternative is to do nothing.

Leeward wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:22 am

Sudan Red wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:28 pm Yeeeaaahhh... I can see nothing sunk in. Oh well, I tried.

Well since you obviously know better, why are you still parading around on your high horse?

Becaaaaause... I won't be COWed? You can't STEER me away from having BEEF with this BULLshit? This is UDDERly laughable? Sorry to HORN in? You can't HIDE forever? Jy HOOF nie te fight nie? I'm MILKing this for laughs?

BADUM TSSSSS!

Real mature.

I've another question, for sake of clarification alone: how do we judge the strength of support for this petition, if we have no idea of its proportion? Off-site members were included, and we can't differentiate between someone considering it and abstaining, and someone not reading it at all. We have absolute numbers, yes, but a ratio would help make a better argument for representation.

Leeward wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:37 amReal mature.

Like a fine cheddar.

And Galahad, dear. Please don't muddy the water with facts.

I would use the average number of registered users who log in (not even post) within any given week as a thumb-sucked figure. Supposing at least half that many sign, I would consider that a significant, if not majority opinion.

Yes, and the Guptas should decide how the country is run. But since you mentioned it, that's another thing I have a serious issue with. Anoyomouse doesn't care about this site, and it's not like running it is expensive when you're squatting someone else (I presume his father)'s server (just WHOIS the domain if you don't believe me, it's public information). That really isn't the point of this petition though. If Anoyomouse cared to make a statement, he would have done so by now.

But you see that’s why it’s not anybody right to be here?
Why don't you go to Anonymous Dad and ask about this... hmmm?
He might shut down ZA-fur leaving you with more opportunity to dominate a furry website.

I didn't wrestle anyone; people who came to the other forum did so entirely voluntarily, and it's not like you can't be on both. I was unable to keep it running for personal reasons.

Yes... you did not try to convince everybody to prefer your alternative and be more active on that.

I'm not sure whether you're trolling or just can't be bothered to read.

Leeward wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:59 am A petition by nature is voluntary: you do not have to sign if you disagree; it would therefore make no sense for it to allow a negative or null vote, since it would be directly counterproductive to the petition's goals. It is however perfectly reasonable to have an opposing petition for the opposite motion, given a willing organiser, enough people who vehemently disagree, and a compelling argument. Although this makes little sense when the alternative is to do nothing.

Fair is only fair when it’s convenient.
If you want somebodies head on the chop block, that person’s replacement should be right next to them.
Perhaps we should star there?
With Rakuen gone… who is he replaced with? (Since apparently: currently nobody else is responsible enough)

What's your point?

Urgh. Why does almost everything on here have to turn into a drama fest of either passive aggressive arguing or straight up arguing that eventually ends up locked or with someone storming off. (and yes I know you can look at my history on telegram and have a blerry good laugh that I'm saying this)
It's getting boring to read...Like seriously can you not?
I get that people disagree and don't get along, but by jeebus why do some of the "adults" on here have to be so damn immature about it sometimes. If you want things to be better and be pleasant then start with yourself and your own actions. You can't just constantly go around pointing at other people and calling them asses when you behave like one yourself most of the time.
That would be like Zuma getting up and pointing to America and going "Hahaha look at Trump, he's such a crap president"
Do you see how that doesn't work?

Anyways
I'm sorry. This isn't directed specifically. I'm just having a rant coz I'm hungry, tired, been in pain the last two weeks and I'm sick of a lot of stuff. Also, apologies if it makes no sense, I'm a bit crap at explaining things.

Although back on topic
I read the thing and found a couple points I agree with coz I've been wondering about them for ages. More so specifically with the Admins on telegram groups, but they apply here as well and to most Admins/CR's/Mods/ whatevers in general.

Hush Kievvu - the big people are talking now. (Juuust kidding! )

Sudan Red wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:27 pm Hush Kievvu - the big people are talking now. (Juuust kidding! )

I am 20. My time at the kiddy table is dead >.>