Petition

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Splicer-Fox
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Re: Petition

#61

Post by Splicer-Fox »

I'm surprised Rakuen was still around after being the focus of the last incident.
I would have said fuck it, and moved on long ago.

This is still because of the same incidents right?
Should there be a Double Jeopardy rule?
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Re: Petition

#62

Post by Sticky_Fingers »

Adagio wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:45 pm So I see a lot of people here have opinions of Rakuen's social skills.
May I have a show of hands. Who here actually made an attempt on talking to him one on one?
Raises hand. Yeah. Again, not a fun experience socializing with him (opinion from experience). Why are you making this point? Stick to whether he is a good moderator or not because if we take character and personality into account things get bad fast whether you like him or not. Personal opinions shouldn't be used as facts (not directed at anyone, just saying it).

To rehash the points being made by most of the replies I saw: Rakuen has prooven to be excentric and socially akward to the point of discomfort on occassions but his moderation skills have been fine otherwise. (Maybe a bit subjective, but we can say this due to a common theme from replies)

Alternatively, their saying that Rakuens politics/personality is bad AND/OR that his position doesn't reflect his job and that he should have his powers rectified.

These two main arguments are running in parallel. I have seen people mixing and bouncing between them though. We really need to make sure both are addressed fairly and seperately.

The third line of discussion is Rakuens like/dislike ratio. This shouldn't be ignored but for the two points above its not related and should be seperated from them. Whether Rakuen is or isn't a good person shouldn't (and doesn't seem to) affect his moderation powers.

If i missed any please let me know. Some of the posts seem to be derailing the discussion. Please avoid this, otherwise this discussion looses credibility. (Light-heartedness/humor are useful tools but try to keep it from becoming the thread topic)

Thank you.
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Hargan
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Re: Petition

#63

Post by Hargan »

This... This is just sad.

You're trying to pin the blame on one person? Really? Are you that blindsided by your own hatred of him to even see that shit like this is what destroys the harmony of this place? What next, when getting rid of one person doesn't work? Do you witch hunt as many people as you can, blaming all the faults on one person?

Everyone here is responsible for themselves, and their lives. You have autonomy, you have the choice to decide how to do things. And if you're gonna Town of Salem this place up, then I'm getting out before the witch hunts begin.

Seriously, and this is from me, if your head is too far up your own arse that you cannot see how dangerous this is and stop it, you will kill this community.

Good luck when they turn on you.
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YoteFox
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Re: Petition

#64

Post by YoteFox »

Ugh... It's because of silly politics like this petition people leave the forum and move to the whatsapp and telegram groups

No one other than some of the active users here care about this
I'd rather be fursuiting

Suit up and it will make you feel better
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Ryall
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Re: Petition

#65

Post by Ryall »

If people leave the forum because a petition - which they had nothing to do with- was confrontational, in spite of all the pleasant things going on in the forum - like the introductions, art, and support - then why do you care?

Where do you draw the line, between saying, "I want to be compassionate, and considerate to a person's feelings," and, "I am not going to entertain this person's irrational whims?"

Didn't you say, YoteFox, that not all furs have to be friends?
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Re: Petition

#66

Post by Galahad »

There is a difference between not being someone's friend, and attempting to rally up support to have someone's privileges removed. Never mind the explicit personal nature of some of the petition's items, which would have opened up some controversy on its own. Additionally, there was a better way this could have been handled while still having the issue addressed: for example, raising the issue with one of the CRs, who would have then raised it with the staff and have them address it. If enough people worked through the CRs, it has just enough weight as a petition with many signatures.

If we can expect people to be mature and level-headed enough not to leave because of drama, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people not to cause some unnecessarily. It goes both ways.
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Re: Petition

#67

Post by Ryall »

Your post suggests that I am making a double standard here, Galahad, but I argued against the petition, and I argued against the people who had nothing to do with the petition, trying to grand-stand and make the drama about themselves.

By your own admission, you are the one being logically inconsistent here, Galahad: you say both issues are negative behavior as a result of a lack of maturity and stability, yet you are attacking the petitioners and defending these bystanders, "affected," by the drama. I say that neither group should be pitied.
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Re: Petition

#68

Post by Cape_F0X »

Let sleeping firedogs lie en moenie ou koeie uit die sloot grawe nie.
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Re: Petition

#69

Post by YoteFox »

Politics bad, politics unnecessary!

Is what I'm saying
I'd rather be fursuiting

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Re: Petition

#70

Post by Faanvolla »

People probably don’t like working through the CRs cause it’s all behind the scenes. The debate, decision, all behind closed doors. The CR won’t necessarily agree with the point the person wants to make, and if they didn’t clearly explain themselves sucks to be them because now they don’t get to see the discussion until the verdict is reached.
Or are the kept informed of what’s going on and can give more input?
Who knows, not me, cause it happens behind the scenes.

A public petition or post gets a public debate going and a public discussion. It involves everyone, even if the decision is still just made by the ones in charge.
It also solves the “well just one person feels like that, what’s it matter” from happening if there are others who feels the same but didn’t speak up.
(That might not happen, but since it’s not public at all, no way of knowing, but it might feel like it if you want X to happen and you get Y instead )
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Galahad
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Re: Petition

#71

Post by Galahad »

If a person raises an issue with a CR, that person is kept informed of the points made in the discussion with the staff. Leeward can testify to this with me representing her, when she raised the issue of CRs and moderators having ambiguous roles.

@Ryall: Did you read the first post I made in this thread? Like you, I defended the right to voice out complaints. Suggesting a better way of doing it is not attacking that right. I did say I had "no problem" with the petition. But that was before people started leaving because of it and before I found out more about the items in it. There is a better way to have this same issue voiced, but without the negative side effects.
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Ryall
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Re: Petition

#72

Post by Ryall »

@ YoteFox, drama (depending on the definition) is "bad and unnecessary," but the people who say they are leaving the forum because of the drama, are also being dramatic, ergo, bad and necessary.

@ Galahad I am not debating that there is a better way it could have been handled, but I am saying that the way some overly sensitive individuals have outbursts in response to the 'drama' when they are not even involved in it, is just as bad. All I read when I see somebody writing, "I am leaving the forum because of the drama everybody," is, "me me me me me me."
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Re: Petition

#73

Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

Faanvolla wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:26 pm People probably don’t like working through the CRs cause it’s all behind the scenes. The debate, decision, all behind closed doors. The CR won’t necessarily agree with the point the person wants to make, and if they didn’t clearly explain themselves sucks to be them because now they don’t get to see the discussion until the verdict is reached.
Or are the kept informed of what’s going on and can give more input?
Who knows, not me, cause it happens behind the scenes.

A public petition or post gets a public debate going and a public discussion. It involves everyone, even if the decision is still just made by the ones in charge.
It also solves the “well just one person feels like that, what’s it matter” from happening if there are others who feels the same but didn’t speak up.
(That might not happen, but since it’s not public at all, no way of knowing, but it might feel like it if you want X to happen and you get Y instead )
Open discourse has its place, however a lot of these open discourses are difficult to parse at times especially when someone makes a seemingly valid statement with little to no proof (this is not a dig at the current proceedings it's merely an external observation from other situations that have been encountered). The issue then comes down to whether the complainant has issues that genuinely need solving or not. Many times it's been, that due to this problem in discretion and believability, it's begun to go more closed for fear of people at times doing exactly what's happened previously on the forum, where the airing of dirty laundry has been seen on several occasions in the past and has been allowed to proliferate otherwise. It doesn't, of course, stop people from complaining everywhere else and building their 'defense' on giving one sided arguments to people who support them, which makes the entirety of the argument even more convoluted.

If anything, if it's a public issue, as admin we'd like to be able to discuss it first and see whether a more private settlement could be concluded before anyone hops on the forum soapbox to express their variety of issues. There IS a leniency to the things we do and we may debate the point at first but if the argument is legit then we're more likely than not willing to allow for it to remain as a topic so long as it doesn't contravene already placed rules and regulations. The right to freedom of speech SHOULD be preserved so long as it doesn't become slander yes?

For this we have several examples in this thread alone where points were debated and the thread still remains as well as a somewhat controversial (in some eyes) comic that was placed.

Faan I know I seem to be using your post as my diving board apologies for that but there are some salient points in what you're saying.

Long story short, we as the admin believe in freedom of expression and are endeavouring towards as much of a protection of this as possible but would also like if you do approach us first. If your argumentation is sound and doesn't contravene already placed site rules, more often than not you have the right to speak up irrespective of our own disagreement.
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Re: Petition

#74

Post by YoteFox »

Actually Ryall, this isn't me grandstanding or turning this into a "me in the spotlight" thing as furries are famous for doing. This doesn't really affect me so directly however it was a good opportunity to voice why I think people shy away from the forum because these exact type of things and it frustrates me to my very core this even exists.

What I tried saying is that politics like this is unnecessary and I do agree with your opinion initially stated on it that Rakuen is actually a good admin regardless of all the background noise.

However the way I said what I did came across as ignorant and with purpose. I was looking for the kind of reaction you gave me just wasn't expecting it from you. Also I shouldn't have been looking for a "fight" to get my opinion across.

I got so annoyed by the fact this actually exists that I skipped through most of the comments much to my own dismay. Given yes my input wasn't neccesary and literally all it achieved was stirring the proverbial pot of shit again for that I apologise.

My initial statement still stands, it's because of unnecessary things like this that people leave not because of Rakuen. My personal reason for becoming less and less active was because of studies and I got too busy to pay attention to the forums. I never "left" or made a grand exit or expected anyone to take notice of me being less active.

I might be a suiter and perceived as an attention whore because of that but lort I'm not that shallow xD
I'd rather be fursuiting

Suit up and it will make you feel better
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Re: Petition

#75

Post by Ryall »

YoteFox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:14 am Actually Ryall, this isn't me grandstanding...This doesn't really affect me so directly however it was a good opportunity to voice why I think people shy away from the forum...
What I tried saying is that politics like this is unnecessary...


...I never "left" or made a grand exit or expected anyone to take notice of me being less active.
I think there is a misunderstanding here Yote.

You said this is one of the reasons people leave. You are right: there were a bunch of posts made by furries citing this as the reason they left. You never did that.

You said politics like this is unnecessary. I said, 'yes it is,' but that also, people saying they are leaving because of it, is uncessary.

The way the admin team handled this all, by allowing the petition to stand, and saying, "I disagree with its content, but we will have constructive conversations around the the admin team structure, which was a valid point," was the correct thing to do. Leeward apologizing and saying, "I still have grievances, but I could have voiced them in a better way," was also the correct thing to do. Random furries saying, "I saw the help and suggestions thread, and fuck this community is toxic: I am leaving," was the incorrect thing to do, in my opinion. That was the point I was making. I was not saying that you are one of those people, Yote.
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Re: Petition

#76

Post by YoteFox »

Oh jeeze now I just feel silly about the whole thing, I really thought you directed it at me because I came in out of the blue and quite unnecessarily voiced an already sensitive opinion.

So you can kinda say I felt a tad guilty, anyway I apologise for all this. Sorry Ryall and sorry Ivic for resparking this.
I'd rather be fursuiting

Suit up and it will make you feel better
- Pepper Coyote


People get built different. We don't need to figure it out, we just need to respect it. Maybe he likes his company more than I like mine - Princess Bubblegum
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Re: Petition

#77

Post by ArtyLoop »

the thread still remains as well as a somewhat controversial (in some eyes) comic that was placed.
The comic was well-received by 99.9% of furries, in other words they found it amusing and it lightened the mood somewhat.
It is open to multiple interpretations however, and that was the intention from the start. Again, the administrators have the ultimate say and they are well within their right to delete it. I wouldn't mind either as I do not own the facility here, I merely have a privilege to use it.

The comic proved to me that most of you have a great sense of humour (for the most part) and that a light-hearted spirit is here somewhere.

There is a saying that goes like this- "Laughter, is the best medicine"
That is really true for anything in the world.

Despite the problems, perceived or otherwise I am sticking it out here. Perhaps my reasoning is selfish but, I will say that I have had to learn to get along with every one of you, and that's been turning out well. You know how active I am, chatting with you folks in Telegram.
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Re: Petition

#78

Post by Ryall »

YoteFox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:43 am Oh jeeze now I just feel silly about the whole thing, I really thought you directed it at me because I came in out of the blue and quite unnecessarily voiced an already sensitive opinion.

So you can kinda say I felt a tad guilty, anyway I apologise for all this. Sorry Ryall and sorry Ivic for resparking this.
Lol, don't worry about it, it was just a misunderstanding, it's fine. I am glad we could clear it up. 😉
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Re: Petition

#79

Post by Leeward »

Just a friendly reminder to all concerned...
Valerion wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:19 amLeeward, let's end this at midnight on 31 January.
Today is the last day to sign, should you wish to.
Valerion wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:19 amAfter that I will make a post stating my position on some of the issues raised here, as well as the petition itself.
Ditto. I stopped responding on purpose to prevent myself from starting any more arguments. I will reply to various comments tomorrow.
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Re: Petition

#80

Post by Sticky_Fingers »

YoteFox wrote: I got so annoyed by the fact this actually exists that I skipped through most of the comments much to my own dismay.

...

I might be a suiter and perceived as an attention whore because of that but lord I'm not that shallow xD
Please...Yote, stop. You said yourself you skipped peoples comments... like mine on staying on topic. You are not the focus of this discussion. Proove you are not an attention whore (a label you gave yourself) and keep your points simple in future rather then having verbal sparring matches. Or to be more kind, people argue with you because your point isn't clear enough and you bring in unnecessary fringe topics.

So instead i will summarize your points for you.

1. This survey made you angry/annoyed, as it is in you opinion "unecessary"
2. You feel Rakuen is being targetted/unfairly singled out
3. The amount of activity on the forum shouldn't effect any opinions merit (including yours)
4. Politics may cause a rift in the forum and cause members to leave
5. All things considered, you feel Rakuen is a good admin
6. You are sorry for any controvery you caused (you didn't really cause any)

Hope thats basically right.
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Re: Petition

#81

Post by YoteFox »

Sticky_Fingers wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:39 am
YoteFox wrote: I got so annoyed by the fact this actually exists that I skipped through most of the comments much to my own dismay.

...

I might be a suiter and perceived as an attention whore because of that but lord I'm not that shallow xD
Please...Yote, stop. You said yourself you skipped peoples comments... like mine on staying on topic. You are not the focus of this discussion. Proove you are not an attention whore (a label you gave yourself) and keep your points simple in future rather then having verbal sparring matches. Or to be more kind, people argue with you because your point isn't clear enough and you bring in unnecessary fringe topics.

So instead i will summarize your points for you.

1. This survey made you angry/annoyed, as it is in you opinion "unecessary"
2. You feel Rakuen is being targetted/unfairly singled out
3. The amount of activity on the forum shouldn't effect any opinions merit (including yours)
4. Politics may cause a rift in the forum and cause members to leave
5. All things considered, you feel Rakuen is a good admin
6. You are sorry for any controvery you caused (you didn't really cause any)

Hope thats basically right.
I've already apologized for my behaviour, can we move on please.
I'd rather be fursuiting

Suit up and it will make you feel better
- Pepper Coyote


People get built different. We don't need to figure it out, we just need to respect it. Maybe he likes his company more than I like mine - Princess Bubblegum
Leeward
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Re: Petition

#82

Post by Leeward »

Okay, results time...

I had to omit two responses because they were somebody using the "other" field to ask if it was anonymous... twice. :roll:

Signatories, alphabetical

Animew
ArtyLoop
Cape_F0X
Faanvolla
Fluke
Galahad
Kievvu
Leeward
Nasheera
Sabretooth Tiger Sward (alias, ask me privately for real identity)
Splicer-Fox
Sticky Fingers

Points, ordered by agreement

Opposes all change (58.3%)
Generally disagreeable (58.3%)
Bad reputation (50%)
Not in SA (50%)
Poor admin (41.7%)
Doesn't delegate (41.7%)
Never approved (41.7%)

Other points, copied verbatim
Aside from the lack of get up and go (for lack of a better phrase) to actively maintain the forum and its software, I have begun to notice that this individual has no real contribution to the community except to "rule" over it with an iron paw. He holds grudges (which is not something you should be doing as a "leader") and he is also very reactionary. Overall a very abrasive and difficult to reconcile person which I am not sure is his actual personality so therefore this is not personal. I do not know Rakuen personally, all I have to go on is his rather flawed methods of presiding and running a community that I am deeply a part of. I speak to furs overseas and the opinions I get are not my own, but they're negative all the same. I do not feel comfortable with someone like this "running the show" when there are far more suitable and well-grounded candidates.
he does not deal with the technical aspect of the website and is better suited to being a moderator instead.
Not fond of anyone mentioning there yiff observations and creations.
He is a bit weird
I think he does a pretty damn good job, and removing him won't magically give you good content, new user-base nor a wider-reach. But blaming someone is always the easiest approach, so do what you want.
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Re: Petition

#83

Post by Valerion »

I will post my answer to this soon.
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Re: Petition

#84

Post by Valerion »

Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am
<snip>

Points, ordered by agreement

Opposes all change (58.3%)
He may do so, and he may do so for good reason. A conservative voice is always a good one. However, you are always free to escalate to me, and if I agree with you, I will debate the issue with Rakuen behind the scenes. Or, as happens in some cases, go ahead and implement it.

I would remind folks that insist on using the absolute "all changes"
  • Several of the pieces of BBCode we have here was implemented by Rakuen, not me.
  • There was a fairly large forum restructure that we discussed last year, and when I logged in it was done.
  • He does allow users to rename themselves once a year for Halloween. That is his project, not mine.
Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am Generally disagreeable (58.3%)
Have you taken the time to actually get to know him? He is not that bad a person as painted there. Take your time and talk to him, find out what makes him tick, and he's a very easy person to get along with. Rakuen and myself are not friends, but you also don't need that to get along with the people you work with. And being "agreeable" has never been in the job description for Admins. That is why the CRs was created.
Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am Bad reputation (50%)
Because he was banned on FA? I don't agree with even a part of what Dragoneer does or does not do. I just never got outspoken enough to actually get banned there.
As for reputation, he is not banned from SoFurry, nor is he banned from Flayrah. Nor from many other furry sites. He did a full presentation of the SA fandom and the growth thereof at a panel at EF.
    And reputation is a fickle thing in the fandom anyway.
    Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am Not in SA (50%)
    He is, as far as I know, an SA citizen. And we have people from all over the world as members of this forum. Having a local-only Admin policy is idiotic for a worldwide audience. We need ambassadors that show the rest of the world what the SA community looks like, how it grows and evolves, and how it differs from the community in other countries. Being global is a plus point.
    Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am Poor admin (41.7%)
    Please direct me to the PM you sent me about how bad an admin he is, with specific details. If it's about a perma-ban, it's almost always universally agreed between us.
    I cannot help you with his admin style and "misuse thereof" if you don't come to me and complain about it. But be specific, be polite and be reasonable.
    Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am Doesn't delegate (41.7%)
    This does not elevate things to a fireable offense, though. And we have very few mods as is. If he can handle the load, without impacting his personal life, then let him.
    Leeward wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 am Never approved (41.7%)
    Anoyomouse made him Admin, true. Same with me. But if you follow around a little, you will notice that a lot of other Admins are no longer Admins. Some mods have been removed over time. With Anoyo as the single remaining exception, I have spoken to each remaining admin and mod, and I have personally agreed that they should serve in that position. So, even though his promotion precedes mine, I agree with it, and I would have done so myself.

    Other points, copied verbatim
    Aside from the lack of get up and go (for lack of a better phrase) to actively maintain the forum and its software, I have begun to notice that this individual has no real contribution to the community except to "rule" over it with an iron paw. He holds grudges (which is not something you should be doing as a "leader") and he is also very reactionary. Overall a very abrasive and difficult to reconcile person which I am not sure is his actual personality so therefore this is not personal. I do not know Rakuen personally, all I have to go on is his rather flawed methods of presiding and running a community that I am deeply a part of. I speak to furs overseas and the opinions I get are not my own, but they're negative all the same. I do not feel comfortable with someone like this "running the show" when there are far more suitable and well-grounded candidates.
    Each of us serves the furry community in our own way. Rakuen and myself do this by making this forum available to the public, at no cost. Often we bear the brunt of unprovoked attacks, made against members of the forum. As Moderator, it is his JOB to police these outbursts of fire and hate and bile, and make them go away. Not doing this creates a very toxic environment, which is something that the forum is often accused of. We cannot turn this into Reddit. Or 4Chan, no matter how much some people just want to troll. There has to be rules, and there has to be enforcement of the rules.

    I don't agree with all the rules, but I wrote each and every one for a specific case. They are needed and they will be enforced. This is ultimately what Moderators do.
    he does not deal with the technical aspect of the website and is better suited to being a moderator instead.
    Not fond of anyone mentioning there yiff observations and creations.
    Then you CLEARLY have not had discussions with Rakuen. Or watched what he posts in the yiffy forum. I am not fond of the SMYG thread either. As a matter of fact, it makes me uncomfortable. That's because I am gay and not straight. As long as you
    • Don't post yiffy things in the PG-13 forum
    • Keep it legal (no animals, no underage, no ...)
    • Don't force your viewpoint on others
    you should be fine. Not everyone HAS to like what you like. Not everyone HAS to agree to your preferences. Not everyone has to be happy about every pic you post. But please let me know where you, in compliance to the three rules above, posted something and then had Rakuen yank the thread, or disciplined you for it. Not disagreed with your viewpoint, disciplined you for it.
    He is a bit weird
    Right. He's a fur. I would be worried if he appeared normal. That would give him away as a spy.
    I think he does a pretty damn good job, and removing him won't magically give you good content, new user-base nor a wider-reach. But blaming someone is always the easiest approach, so do what you want.
    I suspect not everyone filling in the petition had the same viewpoints.

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    A little bit about why Rakuen IS admin:
    • He is the head moderator. Some of the things he says needs to come from a position of authority, otherwise he can't actively change things for the better. Why is the department head also a Manager and sits at the weekly Management meeting? Why isn't the IT department head simply a techie? Because things happen, and he needs to inform the Management Team and the CEO, so they can plan ahead. We have a much smaller structure, but he is the head of a department.
    • I need someone that I can bounce ideas off of. Clear my head, find out what is important, what is not. Rakuen makes an excellent sounding board for that. He is straghtforward, won't try to make things go my way, but he will kick back. To a certain extent I use him as a grounding point for my views on the forum. I have done so with Ivic for a long time as well, but Rakuen has been there earlier.
    • I need an Admin to act in my stead when I am not here. He has been, until now, my second. With Ivic present we have more options.
    • He has interesting ideas. I would not personally have thought of the halloween name-change thing. I was initially very uncomfortable with it, but it always turns out well.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, I know of at least 1 fur that have permently left the forum, simply because of this thread.
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    Ivic_Wulfe
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    Re: Petition

    #85

    Post by Ivic_Wulfe »

    Please note that as we've said, we wanted to lock this thread after today, however, if you do have a response you'd like to give to this, the right of reply is yours, however, to stop the thread from derailing or having superfluous responses we'd like you to pm your responses to the entire admin group and we'll place these posts up and respond accordingly. I understand this isn't the most open way to do it, but I assure you we will try our utmost to be fair in that process.
    AND THEN THE CAGE COMES DOWN! The cage with the Japanese fighting spiders inside, your mother strikes a match off her forearm and tells you to dance in the front room for money... - Dylan Moran
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    Valerion
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    Re: Petition

    #86

    Post by Valerion »

    I have to make one apology from my previous post. I have thought the Halloween thing was Rakuen's idea. While Rakuen runs this year to year, the idea was Ryall's.

    Apologies, Ryall, I did forget that.
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    Re: Petition

    #87

    Post by Valerion »

    Just for the record, and after talking to people online, I would like to extend another apology as to my earlier post. I mentioned sexual preferences. In this case I was using it to illustrate a point - no matter what my preference is, we will tolerate it on the forum. I did not intend to exclude straight people, or their art. Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly.
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