Rules discussion

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Helios_phi
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Re: Rules discussion

#31

Post by Helios_phi »

Well drugs are addictive. There is a point where it's tolerated in society a bit cause people are all special snowflakes and someone could have problems so rehabilitation centers and the stars that go through them are praised.
Beastiality is a mental instability and not tolerated at all. It's grey but you'd have to be a moron to not see the line. Like Valerion once said. (I think it was him anyway) if it's not something you would comfortably say in front of a police presence, just don't say it.
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Re: Rules discussion

#32

Post by Leeward »

If you can make a rule of thumb, you can articulate a concise and consistent rule.

If social acceptability is the issue rather than legality, how about something like this instead?
The first rule of Furry Club is: You do not talk about bestiality.
The second rule of Furry Club is: You DO NOT talk about bestiality.
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Re: Rules discussion

#33

Post by Helios_phi »

Leeward wrote: You DO NOT talk about bestiality.
Nobody wants to.
This has been established, now leave it alone.
I'm actually finding it creepy that it keeps getting brought up.
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Re: Rules discussion

#34

Post by Leeward »

This is literally the first time I'm mentioning it in this thread... I didn't bring it up.

Anyway, admin feedback on ALL suggestions please?
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Re: Rules discussion

#35

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward wrote:Let me explain why I suggested the change in the first place. Say we wanted to discuss the Pistorius case, or the effects and legalisation of cannabis, or even the realism of lock picking in video games, we can't do that because that rule doesn't allow it. That's why I think the blanket ban is illogical and excessive.
Like Helios said, we do allow some discussions. Some topics are just more likely to get out of hand. The problem is trying to balance having discussions while preventing anyone getting hurt or in trouble. At the moment that has been to take things on a more case-by-case basis. If people are discussing Oscar Pistorius it's less likely that someone will say they shot their girlfriend than someone saying they tried cannabis and it was fine. Rewriting the rule is possible but at the moment I'm not sure exactly how that can be done. Maybe Valerion has an idea?
Helios_phi wrote:Beastiality is a mental instability and not tolerated at all.
Since this does keep coming up I suppose I should make some clarifications where information is incorrect. Psychologists do not classify it as a mental instability, its considered a paraphilia that is only problematic if it causes distress or disrupts a person's daily activities. There are also others that have written it can be recognised as a sexual orientation (restricting to people writing in academic literature). Also the intolerance regarding it is something that is mostly part of the English-speaking world. It is or has been legal in many non-English speaking countries. Although some European ones enacted laws against it in the past decade.
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Re: Rules discussion

#36

Post by Helios_phi »

Leeward wrote:This is literally the first time I'm mentioning it in this thread... I didn't bring it up.

Anyway, admin feedback on ALL suggestions please?
Sorry. I didn't mean for that to sound like it was aimed at you. I just meant in general no one should. As was mentioned earlier, there is already existing negative stereotype about the forum. Even now we have members that are being forced to attend a shrink cause of their parents thinking the fandom is strange and perverse.
It just gets my goat.
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Re: Rules discussion

#37

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Just for interest, this is the post I made when we reopened a thread that mentioned cracking software. It gives a good idea about what, for most topics, our position is.
I've been given permission to reopen the thread because Val and I both favour free speech. HOWEVER there are a few very important rules.

-Discussion of cracking is allowed.
-Telling someone how to crack or helping someone crack something is not allowed.
-Admitting to using cracks is not allowed.

If any of the rules are broken the thread will be locked immediately.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#38

Post by Helios_phi »

I love the way the system works at the moment. We get freedom in scholarly discussion and the mods always step in by the time someone gets called a nana.
The answer maybe is for the users to act like bigger people and not let it get to that stage. We're usually pretty behaved aren't we?
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Re: Rules discussion

#39

Post by Leeward »

I would like to dissect the second point of that list into two parts, namely: imparting knowledge and assistance in an action. It is neither illegal nor difficult to find out how to make a pipe bomb, pick a lock, or even kill someone. I would argue that the same is true for cracking software. Therefore, knowledge on methodology could very well be from an external source rather than experience, and by extension sharing knowledge should not be an offence. Moreover, methodology falls under discussion, making the rule inconsistent with regard to the first point. However, I agree 100% that helping someone crack something (or commit any other crime) is an offence on the part of both parties.

That ties in perfectly with the distinction between discussion and self-incrimination. Knowing how to do something does not mean you have ever done it. If everyone adhered to that, this would be a non-issue.

EDIT: Also if "the way the system works" doesn't match the rules, it doesn't exactly make the rules look very serious or enforcible.
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Re: Rules discussion

#40

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward wrote:It is neither illegal nor difficult to find out how to make a pipe bomb, pick a lock, or even kill someone.
Picking a lock isn't illegal. Making a bomb or killing people is. And regardless of whether that information is easily available, the forum is not going to be a place where you can get information on how to commit crimes.
Leeward wrote: That ties in perfectly with the distinction between discussion and self-incrimination. Knowing how to do something does not mean you have ever done it. If everyone adhered to that, this would be a non-issue.
But people don't adhere to that. And people don't act like bigger people. So yes, this is a very messy area because its one we are conflicted in. We want to allow free discussions, I have argued for it before as well, but we also need to do what protects the forum and its owners and we also will do what is necessary to protect our members. Sometimes those protections are from legal rammifications (ie no incriminating posts), sometimes those are from their own poor judgement (like why I wrote security tips for the forum and why Valerion moves all phone numbers and email addresses away from public areas).
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Re: Rules discussion

#41

Post by Leeward »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Picking a lock isn't illegal. Making a bomb or killing people is. And regardless of whether that information is easily available, the forum is not going to be a place where you can get information on how to commit crimes.
Picking a lock is a skill of which the only practical application other than recreation is trespassing, which is illegal. But you're missing the point. I'm saying it's not necessary to lock a thread, ban someone or redact posts because someone said that some or other keygen is the best. Not forbidding something does not mean endorsing or encouraging it.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:But people don't adhere to that. And people don't act like bigger people. So yes, this is a very messy area because its one we are conflicted in. We want to allow free discussions, I have argued for it before as well, but we also need to do what protects the forum and its owners and we also will do what is necessary to protect our members. Sometimes those protections are from legal rammifications (ie no incriminating posts), sometimes those are from their own poor judgement (like why I wrote security tips for the forum and why Valerion moves all phone numbers and email addresses away from public areas).
That is a noble intention but ultimately it is not your or the forum's responsibility to protect members from their own stupidity. Disclaimers, guidelines and redacting contact details to curb spam harvesting are all great ideas, but babysitting and Big Brothering our members is patronising, unnecessary, and a chore for the admins. Although I'll admit one exception might be for members under 18.

The essence of what I'm saying is that conduct should adhere to the rules, not the other way around. Right now there is a mismatch between them, so I suggest to fix the rule retroactively rather than continue applying it inconsistently, because it reduces the credibility of all the other rules.
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Re: Rules discussion

#42

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Fluke linked to some new code for the forum that will automatically resize images to keep the forum width. This is the "image" tag, not the old "Img" tag. Hopefully we can remove the old one soon and then you won't need to worry about image sizes again.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#43

Post by Leeward »

I thought the objection to that when I suggested it last was that nobody wanted to modify the code or install mods... What's changed?
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Re: Rules discussion

#44

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

He linked right to a solution that was simple to implement and didn't require installing mods. If I know how to change something, I will do so. If I don't and it's important, I will look for it but I can do that when I have time. If you suggest a change and offer a way to implement it at the same time it is much more likely to be done.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#45

Post by Leeward »

Seriously? Fluke's suggestion is accepted and implemented immediately where my identical one isn't because you couldn't be bothered to Google it?
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Re: Rules discussion

#46

Post by Valerion »

Leeward wrote:Seriously? Fluke's suggestion is accepted and implemented immediately where my identical one isn't because you couldn't be bothered to Google it?
Fluke's suggestion came with a practical way of achieving it. Yes, we can Google it as well, but that does take a lot of time we don't always have available. Remember that we do the forum in our free time, and work and other obligations takes precedence.

And for that matter, you could have Googled it, and then we would have implemented it sooner.
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Re: Rules discussion

#47

Post by Leeward »

I did Google it, as shown in that other thread. And even if I didn't, you can't expect everyone making a suggestion to know how web development works. You're telling me you didn't have a moment to do what is at most an hour's worth of research since a year and a half ago?
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Re: Rules discussion

#48

Post by Valerion »

Leeward wrote:I did Google it, as shown in that other thread. And even if I didn't, you can't expect everyone making a suggestion to know how web development works. You're telling me you didn't have a moment to do what is at most an hour's worth of research since a year and a half ago?
My argument is this - you are expecting us to jump to adhere to timelines you set in your own head, then get upset when we don't. Irrespective of our own personal and real-life schedules. Yes, we will do it. We do read the posts on the forum. No need to be so combative, we do want to make the forum run smoother.

That said, my PSU is dying on my PC, and I have limited time that I can dare run it at the moment. I can look it up on my mobile devices, yes, but they are not ideal for modifying the forum. And I am using that time to answer why I don't work as fast as some furs would like.
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Re: Rules discussion

#49

Post by Leeward »

Look I'm not being confrontational or expecting you two to run your lives around the forum. I'm just saying that if a task that took Rakuen less than a day when instructions were conveniently found beforehand couldn't be gotten around to in over a year, maybe you guys don't have enough time on your hands to run the forum on your own.
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Re: Rules discussion

#50

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward, Fluke linked to how the solution could be implemented, you didn't. We will try to find solutions but the amount of effort put in depends on the severity of the problem. Pictures being too wide is merely an annoyance and was mostly due to users not adding pictures the way we recommended.

Try looking at it another way. Imagine someone is offering picture requests, as several have done on the forum. One person says, "Will you please draw my fursona; here's a description and link to my reference sheet." The other says, "Will you please draw my fursona" but expects the artist to go searching through their pages to find what their fursona looks like. Which do you think will be done first? I'm pretty sure most artists wouldn't even bother to reply to the second one.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#51

Post by Leeward »

To use your analogy, I'll have you know that many artists are willing to sit with the requester who legitimately has no idea how to design a fursona and find a solution they can both work with. How else would a requester get their first ref sheet?

Let me put this as un-demandingly as possible: I'm not mad about it not getting done, I'm upset that you only do something when it requires minimal effort on your part. You took on the responsibility of becoming an admin, yet you refuse to fulfil a simple request because you aren't given a heat-and-eat solution. At least admit that you're not going to do it, or accept/request help. If you really have so little time in your lives for these (entirely voluntary) duties, why have them at all?

Also what's with Genericfox posting the site logo and then deleting the post? Is that a test admin account or something?
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Re: Rules discussion

#52

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

We do put in effort but effort and severity of the problem go hand-in-hand. You have seemed unusually touchy the past few days.

And, yes. Genericfox is my testing account. It allows me to check that permissions are working correctly or anything else that an admin account can see but others shouldn't.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#53

Post by Leeward »

Yes I am touchy about being treated dismissively (as I believe anyone would), particularly when it seems like a double standard. I have been actively trying to contribute suggestions towards improving this site, and most of the time it feels like I'm the only one who cares about implementing them. Case in point: when I suggested a restructure of the subfora, I had to take charge of combining everyone's input and making decisions because nobody else would, and I wasn't even a community rep at the time. That should have been an admin's job, because it required some degree of authority. Why should lay-members have to have a whole plan of action laid out before anything gets done?
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Re: Rules discussion

#54

Post by Raven Song »

Leeward wrote:To use your analogy, I'll have you know that many artists are willing to sit with the requester who legitimately has no idea how to design a fursona and find a solution they can both work with. How else would a requester get their first ref sheet?
Just my two cents here but that's two different things Leeward. like I would happily sit with someone and create there sona for the first time if they had no clue how it would look. but if I know you have a sona, have had art done of it before and you STILL don't provide me with at least one link to what it looks like, i'll get your art to you in two months time when I finally remember.

I have nothing more to contribute. just wanted to get that out.
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Re: Rules discussion

#55

Post by Sev »

So are we basically saying that unless you hand something on a silver platter, it will not be considered? That seems like a pretty backwards way of thinking about it.
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Re: Rules discussion

#56

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

No one is saying that.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#57

Post by Sev »

But that had always appeared to be the case. Remember the forum restructure? Leeward had to lay it all out in front of us before anything was done.
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Re: Rules discussion

#58

Post by Helios_phi »

You guys seem to be labouring under the delusion that the forum owes you updates? This place doesn't charge for use and runs on private people's funds and time. If you would like things changed, I would suggest that maybe the way to go about it is to learn how. Create the right changes in all the apparently overflowing free time you have and then present the changes you've made to the mods for their consideration.
Either that or create your own Furry site that runs the way you like. Not like it hasn't been done yet.
I'm sure Rakuen and Valerion don't have 8 free hours a day to be sitting on their arse doing nothing.
If you were paying for a membership, I would agree. But while this place is still free.... no one has any leg to stand on asking the mods to do anything actually.
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Re: Rules discussion

#59

Post by Leeward »

Helios, you're missing the point. Just because you volunteer at a soup kitchen doesn't mean nobody can shout at you for making shitty soup or only showing up once in a blue moon to tell the kitchen staff they're not supposed to be making waffles. A voluntary responsibility is still a responsibility, and if you choose to take one up, you have a moral duty to either uphold it or relinquish it.
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Re: Rules discussion

#60

Post by Sev »

On the above, I agree completely with Leeward.

Look at successful open source projects, for example, just because they aren't for profit doesn't mean that they aren't done properly.
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