Rules discussion

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Leeward
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Re: Dissapointed with UCT

#121

Post by Leeward »

No, no, no... we're very much allowed to criticise laws, it's discussing illegal matters that isn't allowed.
How the hell do you think laws are amended in the first place?
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Re: Dissapointed with UCT

#122

Post by Valerion »

Fluke wrote:Im referring to the rule which is it not allowed to discuss South African laws being utter BS or taboo matters.
You're allowed to discuss that SA should legalize weed. That is freedom of speech. You're not allowed to say you consume it, that is illegal.
There are two sexual topics there's a total discussion ban on. Nothing else though.
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Re: Dissapointed with UCT

#123

Post by Leeward »

Last off-topic post from me:
Valerion wrote:two sexual topics
I thought there was only bestiality, what's the other one? Also, does this apply to the non-public areas such as the yiffy section as well?
Valerion wrote:You're allowed to discuss that SA should legalize weed. That is freedom of speech. You're not allowed to say you consume it, that is illegal.
Actually, consuming it is not illegal. Being found in possession of more than one gram of it, as well as selling/buying it, is.
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Re: Rules discussion

#124

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Um... I'm also confused. I don't recall any sexual topic other than bestiality ever being completely closed to any discussions.
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Re: Rules discussion

#125

Post by Sev »

Also, weed is rapidly moving away from being an illicit substance.
Just ask the people from Colorado.
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Re: Rules discussion

#126

Post by Valerion »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Um... I'm also confused. I don't recall any sexual topic other than bestiality ever being completely closed to any discussions.
Other one is cub/minor/etc ...

These apply across the forum. The reason for this moral/ethical. If I become aware of an illegal act, I have to report it to the police. Not doing it, and having proof of this afterwards may make me / the forum liable for defeating the ends of justice or place us in a position where we can be charged for it.
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Re: Rules discussion

#127

Post by Leeward »

Valerion wrote:If I become aware of an illegal act, I have to report it to the police. Not doing it, and having proof of this afterwards may make me / the forum liable for defeating the ends of justice or place us in a position where we can be charged for it.
Incorrect. This is only true for child pornography. For any other crime, you have no obligation to report it, nor can you be held liable for not doing so.

This is why I get really angry when I see Rakuen get all trigger-happy with the lock button as soon as bestiality is mentioned, even when it's being condemned.
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Re: Rules discussion

#128

Post by Blitzy »

Leeward wrote:
Valerion wrote:If I become aware of an illegal act, I have to report it to the police. Not doing it, and having proof of this afterwards may make me / the forum liable for defeating the ends of justice or place us in a position where we can be charged for it.
Incorrect. This is only true for child pornography. For any other crime, you have no obligation to report it.

This is why I get really angry when I see Rakuen get all trigger-happy with the lock button as soon as bestiality is mentioned.
Posting pictures that can be deemed illegal is obviously not acceptable. But I have a perspective.

Let's say I start a chemistry thread about creating designer organic molecules. Eventually the thread ends up with me effectively describing a step by step process to make meth.
Is it illegal? At which point does it become illegal?

Can one rather describe how to make Modafinil and that would be legal? Would that last step be illegal? Or is it only illegal if one's motive is to make illict drugs?

Simoly censoring a discussion is a sign of orwellian style policies but where does one draw the line?
Which grain of sand makes the heap?

I don't know Rauken but I will take it he does for the sake of caution, completely understandable then.
As long as we keep this civil then there will be no problem here.
Last edited by Blitzy on Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rules discussion

#129

Post by Leeward »

Describing how to commit a crime is not in itself a crime. That's like saying I'm not allowed to tell you how high up a human needs to fall from for the impact to be fatal.
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Re: Rules discussion

#130

Post by Raven Song »

If we got in trouble for talking about crime I'd be in prison by now because I jokingly threaten murder on an hourly basis
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Re: Rules discussion

#131

Post by Valerion »

Leeward wrote:
Valerion wrote:If I become aware of an illegal act, I have to report it to the police. Not doing it, and having proof of this afterwards may make me / the forum liable for defeating the ends of justice or place us in a position where we can be charged for it.
Incorrect. This is only true for child pornography. For any other crime, you have no obligation to report it, nor can you be held liable for not doing so.

This is why I get really angry when I see Rakuen get all trigger-happy with the lock button as soon as bestiality is mentioned, even when it's being condemned.
I have gathered a legal opinion that differs from your statement. I will go with what my lawyer said on this. Those two topics - no discussion allowed, positive or negative. The risk to the fandom's reputation is way too great, independent of any legal issues.
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Re: Rules discussion

#132

Post by Leeward »

My lawyer disagrees with yours: "There is no general obligation to report a crime, only in a limited number of statutorily imposed cases is there an obligation - the common law doesn't require reporting." In other words, if you aware of a crime (with the exception of child porn and certain other illegal acts such as fraud) but did not actively assist in the crime, you are not an accomplice, and have no duty to report the crime. Assisting in concealing the crime (by helping the perpetrator escape or lying to the police) is a different matter entirely, but we're not talking about committing crimes here.

So by all means keep the ban on those discussions in place, but stop justifying it by saying you're covering yourselves legally, because that is completely wrong. That is not a healthy level of caution, it's paranoia.

Social stigma on the fandom is also a rather flimsy argument. The mere fact that bestiality is a taboo subject here indicates that we're afraid of being accused of it, which implies possible guilt. Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't have a ban on discussions about drunken driving, yes I'm pretty sure many people in AA have done it at least once, and that is very much a crime.
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Re: Rules discussion

#133

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Leeward wrote:Social stigma on the fandom is also a rather flimsy argument. The mere fact that bestiality is a taboo subject here indicates that we're afraid of being accused of it, which implies possible guilt. Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't have a ban on discussions about drunken driving, yes I'm pretty sure many people in AA have done it at least once, and that is very much a crime.
One of the other concerns that were brought up right from the start is to try and keep the forum neutral. Part of the original reasoning (and there was more than one reason why people wanted the topic banned) was that such topics and associations would drive some furs away. In addition such discussions would leave furs that were in favour of it at risk from others that were against it. It is a topic where each side has strong feelings and where such discussions will cause drama, resentment or worse.
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Re: Rules discussion

#134

Post by Valerion »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:
Leeward wrote:Social stigma on the fandom is also a rather flimsy argument. The mere fact that bestiality is a taboo subject here indicates that we're afraid of being accused of it, which implies possible guilt. Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't have a ban on discussions about drunken driving, yes I'm pretty sure many people in AA have done it at least once, and that is very much a crime.
One of the other concerns that were brought up right from the start is to try and keep the forum neutral. Part of the original reasoning (and there was more than one reason why people wanted the topic banned) was that such topics and associations would drive some furs away. In addition such discussions would leave furs that were in favour of it at risk from others that were against it. It is a topic where each side has strong feelings and where such discussions will cause drama, resentment or worse.
I will use as a practical example what happened when the discussion on cub art (not illegal, actually) started on FA and the eventual way it turned out.
Also, I've been in the fandom long enough that I had people say "Oh, you're a furry, so you're a dogf****er."
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Re: Rules discussion

#135

Post by Randall »

Since the thread that was locked is partially my involvement I have this to say:

I was trying to put paid to the assertion about that Sonic game. I was trying to post a correction and to say that it's a misconception. I was not discussing a taboo subject in fact a lot of what I said was explaining how uncultured farmers and idiots in general get the wrong idea about things. It's the same with anime, do you know what it's like to be accused of being a pedo because apparently.... Not going to elaborate. I do not watch hentai at all.

One thing I don't suffer are fools, and I get over excited when fools take uneducated digs at my fandoms
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Re: Rules discussion

#136

Post by Valerion »

Randall wrote:Since the thread that was locked is partially my involvement I have this to say:

I was trying to put paid to the assertion about that Sonic game. I was trying to post a correction and to say that it's a misconception. I was not discussing a taboo subject in fact a lot of what I said was explaining how uncultured farmers and idiots in general get the wrong idea about things. It's the same with anime, do you know what it's like to be accused of being a pedo because apparently.... Not going to elaborate. I do not watch hentai at all.

One thing I don't suffer are fools, and I get over excited when fools take uneducated digs at my fandoms
Oh I mostly agree with you. However, this brought up a general point that a lot of people get very passionate about, I have been shouted at before, and perhaps needed some input on why these rules are in place.

Now, to address this in general:

The two sexual topics mentioned earlier will stay on the verboten list. Both negative and positive points. You are free to take me up personally on this, and I may approve your posts, but otherwise not. As I mentioned before, this is a reputational, drama and emotional thing, and I will not go down that path. Any other posts will get locked and/or removed.

As for illegal topics - avoid them. If you are willing to discuss it in public in person where you know a police officer willing to prosecute you is present, then you can risk it. If I am ever asked to hand over any thread in this forum to the police or law enforcement as part of an active investigation, I will comply without any opposition. My argument here is that you made the choice to talk about that particular topic here, which is likely not part of the general topic of the forum. You take the risk, and I will not aid or abet this in any way, shape or form. And remember that ANYONE can read the topics on the majority of the forum without any login details. What you say here is said in public. That said, we will use our discretion on these things, and if it gets shut down, it gets shut down. I will likely err on the side of caution, though.

If you want to call it paranoia, so be it.

If I am asked to hand over information that is not related to a real law-enforcement goal, I will do what I can to protect the forum members, within what is allowed legally.
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Re: Rules discussion

#137

Post by Randall »

In the interests of the furry fandom and the forum in general, I will concede that some things are forbidden. That is fine we can live with that.

HOWEVER

Reporting on a media article, even if it was on the radio, does not mean its illegal though. You also need to know that I have pushed the boundaries, hard, on other websites. I can give you my experiences on MyBroadband.co.za, as you know I am banned there, and I have even been threatened with legal action. The reality is, that stuff like this is hard to nail people for. Yes, if you post pics here and stuff like that, bang, you've broken the law.

You also need to know that there are procedures to be followed, people cannot just barge in here and demand you hand over stuff. There are legal avenues that have to be followed first. You need to be careful, you cannot just hand over stuff to cops willy-nilly. They have to produce the correct legal subpoena and all that. I am not an expert on this subject, but I have been through stuff like this on three occasions so by now I have a pretty good idea how it works.

The thing that happened yesterday, was definitely an out-of-context dig at the Sonic Fandom. I felt it necessary to respond. We are not saying anything illegal as far as I can tell, We were all debunking the utter bullshit that was on the radio. The topic was clearly not about the forbidden thing, it was about idiots accusing Sonic games of having such content.

Now, to make it easier, just read and moderate the content, don't be so quick to delete/lock threads. That's what irks other furries. For a time yesterday it felt my threads/posts were being targeted. Not a nice feeling.

As for me personally, I think the forbidden stuff is morally wrong on so many levels, I find it abhorrent. So by all means, do delete discussions about them, but please exercise discretion and cut the paranoia. Nobody has yet been been prosecuted for discussing news articles about these disgusting topics on MyBroadband, as yet.

I don't think I have anything further to add. Except to say I love you all, and peace and goodwill to every fur.
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Re: Rules discussion

#138

Post by Leeward »

All right I'll respect the other objections to those discussions, but I have another thing to say.

I highly doubt that any law enforcement would give half a shit about bothering to monitor some little backwater internet forum with less than a thousand members when there are many much better places to look for wrongdoings on the vastness that is the interwebz, but also just in meatspace alone. I mean, people are getting raped, murdered, and so on, and you think they care about people possibly talking about not being entirely against torrenting?

I also really don't think that anyone who approaches law enforcement about a handful of game torrenters / weed smokers / dogf***ers / pedos / whatevers on the internet would not be laughed at, because not only is it almost impossible to prove, but it's also not that easy to track anyone here (for our SA police service at least, they're not exactly Anonymous). It's just not worth the effort, especially considering how much of a stereotype the average internet user is: as far as they're concerned, we're all basement nerds who play Second Life and watch hentai all day.
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Re: Rules discussion

#139

Post by Randall »

And I reiterate this. I have taken the piss out of Vodacom's CEO, and while they did all sorts of things like threaten me, and block my mobile internet connection, it took a HELL of a lot of effort to get it to that point. Leeward knows how many hours I had to put in, to first get noticed as being a troll, and then for them to eventually take action. Guess how long that took? 4 MONTHS, and 1600 + comments and jibes later. In 2009 I did the same thing, it took them 7+ months to find me, eventually they got me at my workplace, and they just asked me calmly to stop it, no other issues.

As Leeward correctly put it, they have got much bigger fish to fry, and not a lot of time in the day.

And they want to call me a dogf***er because I am a furry, then so be it. Truth be told, I don't like dogs, my wife has one and it irritates me to no end because it barks at all hours and always jumps all over us which gives me the heebeejeebees.
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Re: Rules discussion

#140

Post by Valerion »

Criticizing people? Fine. Discussing that a law shouldn't exist? Fine.

But ultimately we are a furry forum, and I would like us to focus on furry themes, not a general "out there" ranting place. With a very small number of exceptions, nothing furs do are illegal in pursuing their passions.

Yes, we do have areas that carry non-furry traffic. Yes, we are people that also live in the real world. But ultimately I don't want us to spend the majority of posts and actions in that area, it makes us a general purpose ranting forum, which I want to avoid. Hence the rules.
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Re: Rules discussion

#141

Post by Randall »

You don't want this place to be a moanfest like some other well-known forums. By all means do what it takes to prevent that, and I mean that sincerely. Generally though, I keep it furry here, so there's little risk of that happening, if ever.
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Re: Rules discussion

#142

Post by Faanvolla »

Add that circumventing a threadlock is against the rules, cause I don't see it
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Re: Rules discussion

#143

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

It should go without saying that deliberate attempts to circumvent rules are not acceptable but I will make it explicit.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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Re: Rules discussion

#144

Post by Faanvolla »

Please do, cause the last time this was done no one was banned for it, and they threads were not merged.

Proof and proof:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3954&start=30

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3957

made 4 hours later, and person who made it posted after you did, so you did see it.
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Re: Rules discussion

#145

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

The topic of those threads are different. The first one was Marotter's decision to leave the forum which lead to a fight and caused the thread to be locked. The second one was about Sev's conduct during the thread and in general but was not a direct continuation of the first thread. Lee's new thread was a direct continuation of a locked thread with no change in topic.
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Re: Rules discussion

#146

Post by Faanvolla »

Ok.
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Re: Rules discussion

#147

Post by Sev »

That was not a fun memory to dredge up. :/
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Re: Rules discussion

#148

Post by Leeward »

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:It should go without saying that deliberate attempts to circumvent rules are not acceptable but I will make it explicit.
I did not circumvent the rules, you made it a rule after banning me. Regardless, it most certainly does not go without saying that circumventing admin/mod actions is prohibited, since it is common practice and justified in many contexts. Furthermore, retroactively changing the rules to give yourself the moral high ground for banning me is effectively ex post facto punishment, which is literally prohibited in criminal law by Section 35(3)(l) of the South African Bill of Rights, which means that not even a court of law has the authority to do what you just did. It should be obvious by now that you're just trying to shut me up and will use any excuse to discredit me.
Rakuen Growlithe wrote:Lee's new thread was a direct continuation of a locked thread with no change in topic.
Yes, because you locked it just after having your say, and conveniently didn't let me defend myself, making me look like the bad guy, which amounts to abuse of power. I ain't even mad, your actions proved me right.
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Re: Rules discussion

#149

Post by Splicer-Fox »

Admins! I suggest a new rule.
Before a thread is locked make sure Leeward has got the last post.
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Re: Rules discussion

#150

Post by Rakuen Growlithe »

Splicer-Fox wrote:Admins! I suggest a new rule.
Before a thread is locked make sure Leeward has got the last post.
Ah but then she'll just take every thread lock personally.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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