ZA Furries

No offense to Tocs and Adagio, but that's exactly what this is.

It's no secret that the three of them are about as close knit as you can get.
Hell, they even have a sticker pack.

I will admit that I was (and still am slightly) suspicious of cronyism - yet, from a purely logical perspective, that issue is separate from Badge's competence as a CR itself. I voted on the grounds of the individual, and believe that cronyism should be addressed within the context of CR appointment. In other words: I voted based on Badge's character and potential, rather than how he was selected in the first place, because the voting process itself corrects the latter.

Sev wrote:Regardless of what Tocs keeps insisting, this is something that is mostly limited to the forum.

I can't really see someone barging into a random telegram group and proclaiming "I'm a CR and I'm here to save you all".

I would hope no one behaves quite that way but, don't forget, that the CR progamme is in many ways a spiritual successor to the provincial representatives idea floated around in 2010. Which Electrocat described as follows.

Electrocat wrote:It has been discussed that each province should have a representative to deal with each of their respective issues. Someone to be in charge of the region's needs in general, who knows most of the furs in the region, and with internet access and cellphone to be able to contact people.

Examples: which furs in your region will need financial assistance for transport to and from the meets
Confirmation of which furs will definitely be attending said meets
If some of the furs can't get on the internet, you can contact them by cellphone etc. if necessary

Basically, this comes down to, if someone needs to find something out about what is happening in a province, we can contact this person.

While it is more forum based now as that organisational skill is no longer needed as badly, it is nice to have someone you can go to if you need help. I know there are furs out there who do the job already and I am very grateful for that. We can only build a community if everyone works together and works on the platforms that they are comfortable with. But for a new fur who doesn't know anyone in the fandom, to get a message from a CR and know that you have someone you can contact if you have a problem, must be at least a small comfort.

Could you not view CRs as arm bands for a child? They are helpful to learn to swim and them once the child is stronger they can leave the arm bands behind and swim freely. They are there to help when it is needed.

Tetsudra wrote:We're in a situation now where someone who barely participates in this community, is being elevated to a privileged position within it, despite having done relatively little to earn it here.

I have the understanding that he is involved outside of the forum. As stated above, I do not believe the CR role has to be limited to the forum. Many new users find the forum first and then branch out into the other groups, groups which are usually made up of different furs they don't know. Is it really that bad that there is one person there that they already know they can trust and rely on to help them find their feet?

Sev wrote:I would love to hear reasons from the 14 people that are not the current CR's why they voted yes.

I was promised a blind date if I voted YES.

This vote is to ascertain whether that is the general perspective.

Also, do remember that because this involves him he also voted to wait for this process to finish before we finalize anything. I'd say a vote of confidence is that he's done exactly that, may be useful. His willingness to stand down and follow some form of procedure does stand him in good stead at any rate.

Two posts a day does seem to say otherwise about his activity.

Maybe Badge could do a post on why he thinks he should be Rep?
Or will no matter what he says be not good enough, 6 pages in?

At the very least, he should give a justification, yes.
I was never even aware that he wanted to be one.

Now that i finally have a better picture what the cr's role is. Thanks Rakuen. I think, This is just a theory but i'm noticing the majority of opposers aren't or weren't really that active outside the forum. Watsapp and so forth.

This is a interesting factor cause I have to admit the fandom is pretty busy on those grounds. Hell entire meets gets orginised sometimes without a peep on the forum. For the helping hand part the contact information plays in those areas and is a form of instant communication.

I want to ask the opposers if they know how active the furry community gets off the boards? Cause it's way busier there than here.

Cape_F0X wrote:

Sev wrote:I would love to hear reasons from the 14 people that are not the current CR's why they voted yes.

I was promised a blind date if I voted YES.

No that was the ANC messaging you 3 weeks ago.

Galahad wrote:because the voting process itself corrects the latter.

So it's okay if the ends justify the means? Which doesn't matter anyway since:

Rakuen Growlithe wrote:As stated above, I do not believe the CR role has to be limited to the forum.

All exclusivity has been removed, and the privilege of the role has been rendered meaningless. It's become a participation award, given to friends just for showing up, and in my mind mocks the legacy of the hard work previous CRs put into this community. You may as well have renamed it "Noddy Badge Owners", because that's what it's worth now.

Sorry, Badge, I'm sure this is not the week you wanted. I don't know if anyone actually explained the history of this forum to you.

Franky wrote:I want to ask the opposers if they know how active the furry community gets off the boards? Cause it's way busier there than here.

That's part of the argument really. ZAFur sees itself as THE forum for the entire local community, so much so that a CR title here somehow carries weight everywhere. I'm only in about a third of the groups that I know of, and those external groups beat the forum activity here by a factor of 50-1 on a slow day. So there's a lot going on at once here: The old guard dismayed that the CR role is now just handed out to friends who are nice, the forum administration of the solid opinion that ZAFur is the entire local community despite clear evidence to the contrary, and EPIC mudslinging.

The "opposers" are some of the furs who have been around the longest. I think that that has to signify something.

Also, if you're going to talk about things that happen exclusively outside of the forum, then that's outside of the jurisdiction of CR's.
Or do you want CR's to preside over every meet organized over a phone group?

Wow this has really turned into a "you voted the opposite of what I did therefore you're an idiot for not agreeing with me because I'm right so you're automatically wrong blah blah blah" fight, argue, be mean to each other thing. Why dont we just declare an outright war? Bring your claws, fangs, fire breath etc and lets fight this out lol. This is precisely why in elections you're supposed to keep your vote secret and also why I'm not going to give anybody the pleasure or displeasure of knowing whether I said yes or no. I'm sorry but if certain people cant be respectful of others opinions and choices then I'd much rather stay out of this "discussion" ( it's really more of an arguement in some parts).

Franky wrote: No that was the ANC messaging you 3 weeks ago.

You're just because I get to meet Janet the spotted Genet.

CRs don't have jurisdiction. No one has said that the title carries weight. It's just a symbol that people can go to them for help. They are just saying they are willing to help new furs or any fur that wants it. Sev, Tetsudra, you don't need them. You already know your friends, you are comfortable in the community. Others that are starting out are not in the same position and they might be grateful for a little help. It's like complaining that some people want to make a wheelchair ramp. You probably will never use it and it won't serve everyone but there are some people that it will serve and who will be grateful for it.

Kievvu wrote:Wow this has really turned into a "you voted the opposite of what I did therefore you're an idiot for not agreeing with me because I'm right so you're automatically wrong blah blah blah" fight, argue, be mean to each other thing. Why dont we just declare an outright war? Bring your claws, fangs, fire breath etc and lets fight this out lol. This is precisely why in elections you're supposed to keep your vote secret and also why I'm not going to give anybody the pleasure or displeasure of knowing whether I said yes or no. I'm sorry but if certain people cant be respectful of others opinions and choices then I'd much rather stay out of this "discussion" ( it's really more of an arguement in some parts).

It's not about flaying people for voting one way or the other, it's about the fact that many reasons have been given to oppose to decision, while the only supporting ones are "he seems like a nice guy" and "we trust the CRs".

Imagine had I been in those two's place and brought Ice Bear in as the new CR. Would those two arguments still fly?

Yeah tetsudra and sev the only thing that happens on this forum is their name is purple on here... lol

In that case, why even have the role, if it's as ultimately meaningless as that?

It means nothing, and it can be given out to friends regardless of other considerations.

And if someone can give me a valid answer to the question that I posed above, I would change my vote.
That's how certain I am of such a thing being impossible.

Tetsudra wrote:

Galahad wrote:because the voting process itself corrects the latter.

So it's okay if the ends justify the means?

That is a logical fallacy: it is assuming he is now a permanent CR, and that how he got there is just being "tweaked" to justify the foregone conclusion (that he is and will continue to be a CR), which is not the case. This voting process could easily have removed him from that position if the voters willed it, and so it is not as if the "deal has already been sealed" and we are simply attempting to justify it with a veneer of democracy.

But he would never even have likely been seriously considered had Tocs and Adagio not made him one.

Both Rakuen and Ivic were reluctant about it, at the very least initially.

With all that has gone down, it's now impossible to undo what has done and create an even playing field.

Why such fervent opposition if you feel the role is meaningless? If the role is meaningless then surely if Badge is or isn't one is an equally meaningless question?

Sev wrote:But he would never even have likely been seriously considered had Tocs and Adagio not made him one.

I talked with the relevant parties, and it is true that Adagio and Tocs extended the offer (hence how I shared your suspicion of cronyism), but Badge was the one to accept it - he was not just passive. So, let us assume he had requested to be nominated himself without any consideration from Tocs or Adagio; would it have made a difference? Not really.

The proving grounds (at least in his case) are the voting process, not who or what considered him. He appears to be doing fairly well, according to the current results, which reflects it is the will of the community - and that is the deciding factor.

1) If the role is meaningless, then it is an insult to let it continue, because it provides at least some level of elevation for those who have it, without requiring them to actually do anything. In that case, it should cease to exist.
2) If the role is not meaningless, then it should not be given out in such a cavalier way.

That is what I'm saying.

Galahad, he's only doing well because it's a for or again with no neutral option, and people who are indifferent tend to vote yes.
I'm sure that at least some of those voting yes couldn't actually care less.

It's at this stage, with everything returning to topic that I take a moment to have a say from my side.

The entire process was evidently handled in a manner that baited a rather strong opposing reaction.
This being understood quite quickly after the announcement made.

The fact of the matter is I was approached with the proposition for the position of CR and after discussing what would be expected of me I made my decision.
The idea and principle of being an inbetween for the community and the management, as well as the duties of greeting and assisting new members with induction the the forum and it's ongoing was something I believed, and still believe, an important function I could fulfill.
This coupled with an objective nature and an ability to draw from a negative situation the important points that need addressing (skills I developed through several sources)is something that can be an asset to the team.

It was due to the rather agitated reaction that I moved to step down and have the community look at this, a display that the community A) Needs to be fairly heard and B) That if need be adaptation and review are key to successfully keeping the communities interests in best view.

Though I am rather disappointed in the manner at which certain things were addressed on this topic, I believe the points of agitation have merit in the bearers eyes and such should be heard in order to maintain a good policy of inclusion. (No one likes to think their voice goes unheard or carries no weight.)

To finish, I with sincerity believe that I can, and will, regardless of this outcome endeavour to be an asset to the community in both an on an off forum capacity, granted that it seems my daily post count is a major sticking point.

Thank you for your time.

Sev wrote:Galahad, he's only doing well because it's a for or again with no neutral option, and people who are indifferent tend to vote yes.
I'm sure that at least some of those voting yes couldn't actually care less.

This statement cannot be proven unless you were to know the exact motive of the majority voters - which neither of us does.

True.

I know that this is anecdotal, but in my experience, people like to have their say (they will not simply leave a poll unanswered), but they will be more inclined to vote yes than no if they are indifferent.

It might not be a bad idea for people to forget the poll, and to allow each person to make a single post stating their position and why they stand by it.
This will at least force a considered decision, and weed out those who don't care all that much.

Sev wrote:True.

I know that this is anecdotal, but in my experience, people like to have their say (they will not simply leave a poll unanswered), but they will be more inclined to vote yes than no if they are indifferent.

It might not be a bad idea for people to forget the poll, and to allow each person to make a single post stating their position and why they stand by it.
This will at least force a considered decision, and weed out those who don't care all that much.

If we are going by human nature, I could argue that some who voted no did so out of repulsion at what they believe to be cronyism - that is, they disliked the idea of a CR being nominated purely because his friends asked him (rather than voting based on the individual's merit). In fact, I could use multiple posts from this thread to substantiate it - mostly from you and Tetsudra.
However, I could be wrong in insisting that (even with my "evidence"), and so I cannot accurately impute that motive on the "no" voters.

So, in the end, we are only left with the numbers, and it is the numbers that matter. This is because it reduces what could be a spectrum of opinions that would be muddled together into an incoherent mess of disagreement, into two absolute choices: yes or no.

I don't think so, because those accusations only came out when the vast majority of the votes had been cast.
I don't think that "no" has gone up since that happened.

Precisely. You have highlighted why I could be wrong in making that assumption - which is why I am using it as an example.
"Human nature" arguments are subjective. You mentioned those who are indifferent tend to vote "yes", but in the context of this poll, that cannot be proven; just like I cannot prove that those who voted "no" did so out of a fear of cronyism, which is also an argument from human nature.

Sev wrote:1) If the role is meaningless, then it is an insult to let it continue, because it provides at least some level of elevation for those who have it, without requiring them to actually do anything. In that case, it should cease to exist.
2) If the role is not meaningless, then it should not be given out in such a cavalier way.

That is what I'm saying.

Galahad, he's only doing well because it's a for or again with no neutral option, and people who are indifferent tend to vote yes.
I'm sure that at least some of those voting yes couldn't actually care less.

Ok wait.

Badge says i want to be a community rep now that leeward left. It gets considered by the cr's and they make him one explaining how it works and what he'll need to do and communicate problems and stuff.

Days go by and Badge is ready.

New person joins because a friend added him to the watsapp group. This person asks. "Do you guys have like a facebook group or something" Badge steps in "Yeah dude welcome to bla bla bla. Here's the facebook, zafur forum, anthroculture forum etc..." "Also my contact details if you ever need any help." The newbie joins wherever he/she wants and asks "hey i want a fursuit where can i get one." Badge replies "well you can build one with these tutorials or commision one from these people" etc... etc...

Zafur paints the color of this helping hand's name purple and everyone loses their minds.

This is literally the picture I have in my head now. Common guys. Maybe argue over the fact that Kage didn't drink in his story hour at ac or his sunnycon panel this year rather or something. But this is retarded.

Shit I wouldn't want badges job. Holding new furs hands and having to be aware of events and whatnot. Blegh.... not my thing. So props for volenteering from my side.