Badge as CR - VOTE

[Sev]

Going back to an earlier point for a second:

"Welcome to democracy, where the 80 year old's vote is equal to the 19 year old's."

It's more like a tourist being able to vote in a national election. They're not at all invested, are completely ignorant of what's at stake, and will never be affected by it, because they'll be gone in a week.

"Also, since you're deleting your account, I'd've thought you'd care way less about the happenings on here tbh."

I've been wrestling with this, precisely because I care too much. It's not healthy.
If I didn't care, I would just stop logging in.

[Valerion]

The first time that this seriously came up, the best candidates were selected from each province.
All of these candidates were active members.
From that, the admins ended up choosing.

Incorrect, as you well know. And I have posted about this before.

I appointed Ivic in this role, and he gathered people from the provinces. I told him to run the CRs as a completely independent entity, where I will not interfere with his choices. After he was changed to a mod, I forced him to resign (yes, there was an argument about it). He suggested Leeward as a replacement, and I made her one. Between her and him, they assembled a smaller team.

When Leeward resigned, I asked the remaining two what they would like to appoint, and they suggested Badge. Rakuen was against it, due to him being new on the forum, but since they are independent I have to respect their decision. So I asked Adagio to make the announcement and made the relevant changes. Important in this decision is the ability to work as a team together, which is why it's better to let them assemble it.

[DanLeo427]

Well it's taken a while to catch up with everything. I personally think that a CR with more life experience is a very good idea, (Nothing against tocs and Adagio, in fact I agree with this decision completely.) I've known Badge for a good while, he is an excellent people's person, relativity new to the forum or not. I see absolutely no harm in giving him a chance. I do however think that people are over reacting to this much more than they need to.

[Tetsudra]

Something worth noting out of all of this: Faan is right. There ARE new people that come online for the first time, find new communities, and need people to guide them. So much the better if those guides are of a similar age, and are educated, equipped, and able to help orientate newcomers. From that perspective I'm 100% on board with the stuff Tocs and Adagio are trying to do.

But not here. The CR position is meant as recognition for extraordinary efforts in bolstering the ZAFur community, and the local fandom at large, which reps in the past have done to great effect - Leeward, Ivic and others. Ivic's been working on his convention for a long time now. Leeward's started up an advice column that grew out of her time on V&S. That's the caliber of individual deserving of a CR title here.

So far, between Tocs, Adagio and Badge, I've not seen invested effort or dedication approaching that level. I have no doubt it would come with time, but now is not the right time. My vote's staying no, and I'm checking out of this discussion.

[Sev]

Yes, I should have been more specific in saying that Ivic selected them.

Although for Cape Town, at least, it seems that you two did weight in on it.

[Tocs]

Well Tetsudra I believe that is due to the fact that you are simply unaware of what we have done (just because you don't know doesn't mean that we have done nothing)

[Galahad]

Honestly, what I am completely baffled by is why you care so much. You can do the CR thing all you want without being a CR, it doesn't warrant a fancy position. By all means, reach out to those too timid to approach management, but it's not your or the forum's responsibility to cater to their sensitivities. People like that will not cope with real life, and they need help. Real professional help: i.e. not the kind some unqualified gentle soul can provide.

That is an excellent point, Lee. If one has an issue, one should not be afraid to address it directly to the person concerned; and, really, a caring community who welcomes everyone is one that will thrive.

Yet, this concerns logistics as much as it concerns bravery. Those who make use of the CR arrangement are not always doing so because they are afraid to contact management directly; I would even be bold enough to guess that cases of the latter are a minority.

[Leeward]

To answer Lee and Randall, the fact is that you are not willing to accept the fact that other people think completely different to you, and have various ways of dealing and coping with situation. And the fact of the matter is that these are not valid points at all, because you are dismissing what is a FACT that some people do feel in the community for a large variety of reasons (such as Faans) and it is most of the time, very personal reasons, do understand that people think differently to you.

No, Tocs... You're the one who won't admit to the FACT that people who have zero social skills will not make it in real life. That, and the FACT that they are not your responsibility. I'm not saying that's not how they feel, or that they mustn't be helped, I'm just saying it's nobody's problem but their own.

[Sev]

In my experience, trying to help those kind of people does nothing good, and can make them even worse, because it can drive them to become attention seeking or to retreat further into this safe world.

And we've had this kind of thing happen again, and again, and again.

[Tocs]

Well I am sorry but I did have those feelings and I feel I have grown and learnt a lot from that time, and that I have done pretty well in the real world, it isn't our responsibility but who is to say you cannot help where you can? I am not making it my problem, but the fact of the matter is that these people also have a say, and that these people do require a bit of a push now and then (heck, it isn't only these people that approach me, some people just simply do not have time to contact admins or ask questions or the means to, so they approach the CRs in doing so)

[Leeward]

Again, I never said you shouldn't help them. But, I've had a few of "those" furries in my life: you try to uplift them, and all they do is drag you down with them. You're one of the good ones, the lucky ones, who can pick themselves up and take control of their lives. Many can't, and they simply can't be helped.

[Sev]

I honestly don't get the basic logic; why is a person with a purple name going to seem less intimidating to a newcomer than a person with a red name?

And I joined before any of this nonsense had become a thing, and did just fine. I simply reached out to people as they reached out to me, and that is how this should be done.

Under you two, this whole thing seems to just have become about some sort of self validation.

Would you change if CR's stopped being a thing? I would expect that the answer would be no, and would be quite disappointed if that were not the case.

[DanLeo427]

Ok So let me set out a few things here.

1: Tetsudra, I think you are misunderstanding the CR title here. It is not an award for outstanding people that changed the face of the ZA furry fandom, it is for people with good connections to the community, to guide and welcome new furs to the forums and to be that connection from the furs on the forum to the mods, to let them know what's going on and how people are feeling about different things.

2: Leeward, I've seen you acting very high and mighty after you resigned from your CR position, you keep preaching all these wonderful things of how they should act and how they should do things, which for a large part I agree with, you having been a CR yourself for a long time. BUT my problem now is that you keep preaching these things after you ran away from your post... And now you're causing much more drama ( Which as I understand it is the very thing you wish to eliminate) here on the forum that has ever been necessary... Why?

3) Sev, Caring is not unhealthy, it is an amazing trait that you have, no matter how much you get frustrated with things you always come back, your anger has, as far as I could see, never been unfounded. But fueling fires isn't really a good way to go about it...

And finally, Seriously guys... You're all grown up, you're very smart people, stop ganging up on people you know don't want to fight back, in as many words, stop being fucking bullies.

[Tocs]

The basic logic is that a community representative, is a lot less of an intimidating title, and also we do our personal greetings which allows the users to immediately get to know, and be more comfortable with us, we try reach out to the entire community, making sure that everyone is together, and to answer anyones questions where possible, If the CRs stopped being a thing entirely, honestly I would keep doing what I am doing, but the only reason why furs would reach out to me is because I have helped them in the past, the newer furs (or furs that I simply have had little to no contact with) will not approach me despite them wanting to try ask questions or need help in anything, whereas I have had furs come to me (old and new) purely because of the title, it is sort of like an indicator of "Go talk to this person they know what to do or who to ask" sort of thing.

[Sev]

3) Sev, Caring is not unhealthy, it is an amazing trait that you have, no matter how much you get frustrated with things you always come back, your anger has, as far as I could see, never been unfounded. But fueling fires isn't really a good way to go about it...

And finally, Seriously guys... You're all grown up, you're very smart people, stop ganging up on people you know don't want to fight back, in as many words, stop being fucking bullies.

It's unhealthy when it starts to overtake your life.

I'm making sure to try and be as rational about this as possible. I might be a bit emotional, but I'm not being a bully.

Tocs, I know that, but having three people for it is complete overkill when it seems like we barely get a new member a week these days.

Then there's the fact that I can't help but feel that having a CR who is almost entirely active outside of the forum would be counter productive for it.

[Leeward]

Leeward, I've seen you acting very high and mighty after you resigned from your CR position, you keep preaching all these wonderful things of how they should act and how they should do things, which for a large part I agree with, you having been a CR yourself for a long time. BUT my problem now is that you keep preaching these things after you ran away from your post... And now you're causing much more drama ( Which as I understand it is the very thing you wish to eliminate) here on the forum that has ever been necessary... Why?

Me, high and mighty? If anything I'm just pointing out the flaws and hypocrisies where I see them. If that's causing drama, it's not my fault people can't handle criticism. I didn't run from my post, I resigned because I wasn't getting anywhere. I don't give a shit about people's sensitivites, I'm just being honest, that's not causing drama.

[Tocs]

And that is why I believe you resigned from your post, because the intentions of what CRs are meant to do and with some of the intentions you were trying to do did not correlate together, hence you getting upset about it. (sorry for late edit)

[Randall]

And that is why I believe you resigned from your post, because the intentions of what CRs are meant to do and what your intentions were did not correlate together, hence you getting upset about it.

Incorrect!
Stiil not getting it I see

[DanLeo427]

Me, high and mighty? If anything I'm just pointing out the flaws and hypocrisies where I see them. If that's causing drama, it's not my fault people can't handle criticism. I didn't run from my post, I resigned because I wasn't getting anywhere. I don't give a shit about people's sensitivities, I'm just being honest, that's not causing drama.

And I'm pointing things out as I see them, take it as criticism on your criticism. And I can also see that you don't give a shit about other's sensitivities, you make this very apparent, and it's not like I know you, or at least not like I've known you over past two and a half years or so. I'm just wondering why all of the sudden? I can understand that you feel like you're not getting anywhere, but I think you made massive strides in the CR initiative.

[Franky]

Is every thread about this going to turn into a emotionally fueled internet fight?

[Sev]

When there is such a strong divide in opinions, it's pretty much inevitable.
About the best that you can hope for is to limit the amount of mud slinging.

[DanLeo427]

Is every thread about this going to turn into a emotionally fueled internet fight?

I'd say this is much more of a debate than a fight. So far it's been relatively~ civil.

[Franky]

Is every thread about this going to turn into a emotionally fueled internet fight?

I'd say this is much more of a debate than a fight. So far it's been relatively~ civil.

I'd recommend then not using ad hominem such as high and mighty and fucken bullies in debates as an example. That is what triggers people.

[Valerion]

Leeward, I've seen you acting very high and mighty after you resigned from your CR position, you keep preaching all these wonderful things of how they should act and how they should do things, which for a large part I agree with, you having been a CR yourself for a long time. BUT my problem now is that you keep preaching these things after you ran away from your post... And now you're causing much more drama ( Which as I understand it is the very thing you wish to eliminate) here on the forum that has ever been necessary... Why?

Me, high and mighty? If anything I'm just pointing out the flaws and hypocrisies where I see them. If that's causing drama, it's not my fault people can't handle criticism. I didn't run from my post, I resigned because I wasn't getting anywhere. I don't give a shit about people's sensitivites, I'm just being honest, that's not causing drama.

You wanted the CRs to gain mod powers in parts of the forum. I gave you that, to make your job easier.

You resigned because I wouldn't agree with you that the CRs have no purpose on the forum. You wanted to destroy the CR role, and change it into a Mod role. I still disgree with your argument.

You also resigned because I told you that it is too early to move hosting provider. I felt the idea was good, but the timing was wrong, as I was focused on another project at the time (in this case the con).

I remember sending you a 1.5 screen PM explaining my position and reasons for doing what I did, to which I have, to date, received no reply on. You resigned within a week after that.

[DanLeo427]

I'd recommend then not using ad hominem such as high and mighty and fucken bullies in debates as an example. That is what triggers people.

You know me, I speak very straight forward, and I feel that everyone here is mature enough to handle it.

[Leeward]

And that is why I believe you resigned from your post, because the intentions of what CRs are meant to do and with some of the intentions you were trying to do did not correlate together, hence you getting upset about it. (sorry for late edit)

You really haven't got a clue, do you...

[Galahad]

I would recommend that, as a rule, all ZA Forum users have a purring kitten on their laps while debating to soothe them, but I'd imagine within five minutes the felines would find themselves in the role of being improvised projectiles.

[Ivic_Wulfe]

While taking all of this information in to account and being the ex-leader of the initial CR group before being made a mod, I had intended that this initiative was exactly as Galahad stated as well as many of his other points.

This discussion, however, you'd probably want to hear me say is a bad one. Honestly, it's the most frank discussion on the forum I've seen. Three pages, people have been able to have their say and ensure that they are heard with minimal to no real unfounded perspectives. This is a good understanding of where the community stands. Within the forum I had hoped that the CR position would also be able to look at the other groups and do what in principle I'd hoped they'd be able to do. Be welcoming faces. I myself had, as soon as a fur came into my 'area' sometimes made arrangements to meet with them, take them out for a drink, be friendly, ensure that they find us to be as welcoming as possible. That's what I did in my capacity. To add a face to the name on the forum.

While I may have many differences with some of the furs on here I'm willing to work with every one of them, even though I no longer fill the position of CR I do still have an investment in this kind of movement. If you saw my personal choices for CR I looked for people from the community who would also not necessarily have a problem with meeting people face to face, Leeward did this as well in her own capacity. That was my choice for why there were "regional representatives". People with transport and the willingness to go out and meet people.

ZAfur to me personally is a place to start the journey through the community at large. Knowing that there are people that you can see, meets that happen etc. is a big part of it. That was the original reasoning behind it. After leaving it, I didn't necessarily have a say in the matter as much as I may have liked. Things changed and for the most part for good.

I still remain on good terms with Leeward and I think that some of the things said against her have been unfair. And as much as I personally don't like the execution shared by Randall and Tetsudra on the forum and Tetsudra off forum, they're smart people, they have a good push and understanding of what they want to see in the community and within South Africa as a whole. I honestly don't deserve any praise from any of you in any capacity. I merely just do what I think is necessary. I get a lot of flak for it, but I'm willing to work with people as much as possible. I can't not. For instance,

Totem spoke to me yesterday and told me that it's expensive to get to Bloemfontein and many other things. I understand that request, I heard it and we're looking into chartering a bus for furs from Cape Town or at least attempting to get better prices if they come as a group. It isn't an ideal thing. Tetsudra made that abundantly clear and many other furs have as well. It doesn't make the convention any less or any more. We'd made a decision, we're sticking to it not for lack of hearing but for now it's our best bet and when furs come to the convention we'll have a workable discussion around it.

CR's can help in this regard. I've been seen as aloof, scary (for some reason) by furs. I'm really not. But people find it difficult to talk to me and I have to hear it from others. It's difficult to deal with in its own right.

I think as a CR what Tetsudra is saying may be correct, maybe there is no reason for anyone to have a purple name. But at the end of the day, meeting them in the forum and off the forum and the interaction they can give is also necessary. In part, yes, for their ability to interact and also in part as a connection point for some off forum things that may spill into the forum. Being able to hear a general feeling that isn't said on here helps the Moderators with their job as well. To ensure that we ARE fair. And to improve our overall position. This was meant to help the Admin/Mod team to improve the general position that we're in.

Tetsudra, Leeward, Randall and Sev are in agreement that we aren't doing our job properly. Be assured that we are trying our best and maybe we'll be able to change that perspective in time.

[Leeward]

You also resigned because I told you that it is too early to move hosting provider. I felt the idea was good, but the timing was wrong, as I was focused on another project at the time (in this case the con).

Hosting migrations are not a huge deal, it takes a few hours if you know what you're doing, which you clearly don't.

I remember sending you a 1.5 screen PM explaining my position and reasons for doing what I did, to which I have, to date, received no reply on. You resigned within a week after that.

Your PM was one of the reasons I resigned, how did you not realise that?

Tetsudra, Leeward, Randall and Sev are in agreement that we aren't doing our job properly. Be assured that we are trying our best and maybe we'll be able to change that perspective in time.

I don't mean to be snide, but how long will that take? It's already been two years since the con was in the works.

[Franky]

I'd recommend then not using ad hominem such as high and mighty and fucken bullies in debates as an example. That is what triggers people.

You know me, I speak very straight forward, and I feel that everyone here is mature enough to handle it.

Yup so do I but i think this particular subject has recieved a fuck tonne of misinterpretation of what people mean in their standings. A bunch of threads already got locked and the OP is kinda burried in a shit storm of fights.