ZA Furries

Hi guys!

Due to the strong reactions received at the appointing of Badge as a CR, we decided to have a poll to decide if he stays or not.

We decided to let you, the community, have a say in the matter of who will be picked as a new CR.
This will be a vote:
If you feel that Badge should be part of the CR team, Vote YES.
If you feel Badge should not be part of the CR team. Vote NO.

The vote will run for 7 days from posting, and all registered forum members can vote.

As the Mod/Admin team, we've had a discussion with the CR team and are in full agreement with this decision, we feel it's necessary to both allow the CR team to make their decision based on these factors as well as ensure that we know what's going on. As a team we understand the issues that have been placed forward and have understood that this may have been an underlying issue. It is only fair that it is allowed to be open to debate. We will monitor the proceedings accordingly and base a decision on the outcome.

Kind Regards

The Admin/Mod Team

I voted no.

Badge is a good guy, but appointing him seems to miss the idea of what a ZAFur Community Rep is supposed to be.
I think that it should instead have gone to RavenSong.

Besides, when there are relatively few active members on the forum these days, do we really need 3 community reps?
You two seem to be doing a perfectly fine job as is.

As I have mentioned before we do feel that the community representative duties aren't only limited to the forums, but throughout the community, be it on the telegram groups, WhatsApp groups, etc. (Please note I say duties, not authority) so I do feel it is fine to appoint another CR (be it badge or not).

And as I mentioned in response, that was never its intended purpose.
Besides, what do the Telegram groups care what color your name is on ZAFur?

And as I have said in response to that, you are correct, it never was it's original purpose. But that is what we have been trying to change, and have done so successfully, and I personally have received a positive reaction from those on telegram for doing the same thing I have done on the forums. The community has grown overall, and use a wide variety of platforms, hence why we have chosen to essentially "expand" to the other groups of the community. (If a CR were to just stick to the forums that is perfectly fine, but going that extra bit further is something which I think is good)

I voted no.

It's nothing against Badge personally, but as a member of this community, I'm not really comfortable with a situation where two CRs can just pull someone else in who hasn't contributed as much to these boards as other members have. I'm also not in favour of the overall notion that the ZAFur forums somehow represents the entire South African furry fandom, which was used as justification for this decision in the first place.

Being a CR is at least some measure of responsibility towards the community you're representing. I'm all in favour of Badge (or anyone else) proving to the rest of us, through his actions and effort invested here, that he would make a good CR. And on the basis of those actions, visible here, to make that determination. But not out of the blue like this.

Tocs wrote:As I have mentioned before we do feel that the community representative duties aren't only limited to the forums, but throughout the community, be it on the telegram groups, WhatsApp groups, etc. (Please note I say duties, not authority) so I do feel it is fine to appoint another CR (be it badge or not).

I have a serious problem with this notion that these forums are in some way representative of the entire local community. For one thing, most interaction in the community takes place outside of these forums (on Telegram, Whatsapp, and on the furry art sites). Most of the people who have registered here barely interact anymore.

And beyond that, I have a question: What "duties" do you ascribe to the position of Community Representative? Because so far, the only "duties" I've seen mentioned are nothing more than common courtesy, and talking to the people in the groups. Who, exactly, are you representing? And who are you representing them to? What are you empowered to do that any other regular member of the community is not?

Tocs wrote:And as I have said in response to that, you are correct, it never was it's original purpose. But that is what we have been trying to change, and have done so successfully, and I personally have received a positive reaction from those on telegram for doing the same thing I have done on the forums. The community has grown overall, and use a wide variety of platforms, hence why we have chosen to essentially "expand" to the other groups of the community. (If a CR were to just stick to the forums that is perfectly fine, but going that extra bit further is something which I think is good)

Then why not create something entirely separate from the ZAFur CR's, and leave the existing role as it was meant to be?
That seems like the best compromise to me.

Because, as Tetsudra has pointed out, Badge has just not contributed enough to the forum to justify him being given one of its core roles.

Trying to backtrack now that the decision backfired in your faces, eh?

Honestly, I don't even think the CR initiative makes sense any more. People do more to support each other off-forum, hence you two appointing Badge despite him being relatively new and not having much of a presence here, because he was already in the role behind the scenes. That's how I think it should be. No formal structure, no colourful name, no glory, just people who care enough to take it upon themselves to be nice to others.

Sorry Badge, nothing personal, but my answer is no, as a matter of principle.

Never once did I say that the forums are the main centre of attention (heck I think the lately it is the telegram groups that are the main focus) but can you really be against the entire notion of extending duties to these other groups? (Which I shall mention again has had a positive impact, even if it was just to have a new fur feel more welcome).

Also leeward you're wrong there, we are backtracking because we actually listened to the community we weren't thinking (oh crap, our reputation.. nuuuuuu) and we felt a vote would give a better indication of what to look for in the community itself.

As a participant in the voting process, may I please ask that any controversy and debate be handled outside of this thread?

Tocs wrote:but can you really be against the entire notion of extending duties to these other groups?

What duties?

Honestly, just answer me that. What duties do these CR's perform? What work are they doing, tirelessly, to make the community a better place for all of us, including the people not on Telegram? What code of conduct are they following, what initiatives are they running, where can I find out more about who they're representing and what they stand for?

Point out to me what duties CRs do, what Badge has done, and how that makes ZAFur a better place, and I'll consider changing my vote.

I voted no.
Because out of principle.

I am a furry, BUT this forum does NOT represent me though, nor can it assume to speak on my behalf. I represent myself thank you very much.

But what does a role on ZAFur have anything to do with those groups?
What difference does it make?

You can be a supportive member of the community regardless.

As a participant in the voting process, may I please ask that any controversy and debate be handled outside of this thread?

No, because people have a right to be able to make an informed decision.

Tocs wrote:can you really be against the entire notion of extending duties to these other groups?

Yes, because you're only a CR on this forum, which really doesn't matter outside of it. Anyone can take on those duties without your knowledge or consent, so recruiting or denying people into what has turned into a care bears club doesn't do any good at all. This is why I now think the whole thing was misguided in the first place.

Tocs wrote:Also leeward you're wrong there, we are backtracking because we actually listened to the community we weren't thinking (oh crap, our reputation.. nuuuuuu) and we felt a vote would give a better indication of what to look for in the community itself.

You made a mistake and people called you out on it so you're now trying to fix it, how am I wrong?

"but can you really be against the entire notion of extending duties to these other groups?"

You know you are starting to annoy me with your naivete:

Sorry to break it to you, but this isn't Lord of the Flies, nor is this Survivor.
If you wanna be a CR, that's fine, don't expect me to come every week and thank you for it.
Being a CR is not unlike being a moderator. Its a KAK job, even though it gives a power trip to some. But really, that's what you all are, the janitors and therapists of the place. If you want some recognition or reward for doing something like this, let me direct you to Rudolph Muller, he will pay you to sit all day and censor stuff and swing the banhammer, and listen to forumite whingeing. You know where to find him

And also our duties as CRs is essentially to be somewhat of a voice for people in the community. We point people out to every single part of the community, we answer any questions they have, we assist where we can in the grand scheme of things, we communicate with other mods/group leaders of what the community may or may not like, we try make the community a better place and more importantly we try to unite everyone. Does this mean that we are the only people that can do this? No, heck I was trying to do this to the best of my ability before I was appointed to CR, however if there is a particular group made for everyone to see not only would it give a clear indication to everyone in the community to not only ask questions, but also relay information to, but it also makes it less confusing and overwhelming for new users when they initially join the fandom, and they know who to talk to if they ever need anything (in addition there is the duties that must be made on the forums). And yes. You would be right in saying that pretty much everyone has the capability of doing this, but it is also more of the question of being able to do this at any given time, and to do this on a consistent basis which some furs are not able to do.

And also our duties as CRs is essentially to be somewhat of a voice for people in the community

If the moderators, and forum admins weren't so lacking in social skill and leadership skill, it would be unnecessary.
What's this? A friggen furry union, and you're the shop stewards??? Because like at work we need unions to "fight da boss" for change

I don't doubt your intentions Tocs, but please name some actual examples of how exactly the CRs have been a voice for the community, mediated with the members and mods/admins, or united people?

Yes, because you're only a CR on this forum, which really doesn't matter outside of it. Anyone can take on those duties without your knowledge or consent, so recruiting or denying people into what has turned into a care bears club doesn't do any good at all. This is why I now think the whole thing was misguided in the first place.

If the former head CR has this opinion, then it should be taken very seriously.

Regardless of what you say, or your intentions, Tocs, the role of CR has never been about the greater community.
It's always been managing relations within the forum (mostly interpersonal disputes and helping new members settle in).

Regardless of what you say, or your intentions, Tocs, the role of CR has never been about the greater community.
It's always been managing relations within the forum (mostly interpersonal disputes and helping new members settle in).

And about fighting the admins to get things done!

Randall wrote:

Regardless of what you say, or your intentions, Tocs, the role of CR has never been about the greater community.
It's always been managing relations within the forum (mostly interpersonal disputes and helping new members settle in).

And about fighting the admins to get things done!

I never said that, but you're not wrong.

Leeward wrote:

Tocs wrote:Also leeward you're wrong there, we are backtracking because we actually listened to the community we weren't thinking (oh crap, our reputation.. nuuuuuu) and we felt a vote would give a better indication of what to look for in the community itself.

You made a mistake and people called you out on it so you're now trying to fix it, how am I wrong?

We followed protocol... That's not a mistake.

You didn't have a vote when you added me and Tocs?

Randall wrote:Its a KAK job, even though it gives a power trip to some. But really, that's what you all are, the janitors and therapists of the place. If you want some recognition or reward for doing something like this, let me direct you to Rudolph Muller,

Who is looking for recognition??

Randall wrote:If the moderators, and forum admins weren't so lacking in social skill and leadership skill, it would be unnecessary.

I have never shared your beliefs in this...

The CR initiative was a great idea.
I know how hard it is to contact a mod. It's not something I would want to do... It's not limited to here...

Leeward wrote:I don't doubt your intentions Tocs, but please name some actual examples of how exactly the CRs have been a voice for the community, mediated with the members and mods/admins, or united people?

Lee... Really? There has been MANY times...
Getting threads locked before they got outta hand. Getting people the help that they needed before they did something stupid.
Being the shoulder for countless people to cry on!

Randall wrote:And about fighting the admins to get things done!

No. To find mutual ground. Fighting is what got is in this mess...
We are mediators. Not soldiers.

To respond to the notion that the role of community representative does not extend beyond the forum...

Valerion wrote:They communicate with upper management on the community's behalf, and are advisors to the mods and admins, acting in the best interests of the users. Note that they are neither mods nor admins, but act as a buffer between them and the community. Other duties include introducing new users to the site, coordinating local events, mediating in disagreements between users, bringing concerns of the community to the admins' and mods' attention, and otherwise advocating for the users' best interests. They also make suggestions for general site improvements that could benefit all users.

Taken from "Meet the Team". Underlining added by me.

This demonstrates that the primary roles of CRs are fulfilled directly here on the site, but their influence and duties can and tend to extend to varying degrees beyond it. For example, the staff of the forum - namely, Valerion and Ivic - are also spearheading the 2017 convention, and thus CRs could fulfill an auxiliary, real-life role of communication between the staff and the community at large at more precise levels (perhaps at the convention itself).

"Getting threads locked before they got outta hand."

That should be the role of a moderator. I remember it distinctly being stated that that is considered a bag idea for a CR to do things that could galvanize the community against them.

"Being the shoulder for countless people to cry on!"

Why does that need an official role?
I'm here if anyone needs a shoulder to cry on, and I've never even been a CR.

Adagio wrote:We followed protocol... That's not a mistake.

You didn't have a vote when you added me and Tocs?

There weren't any other CRs back than, and nobody would have objected except those who may have wanted the role.

Who is looking for recognition??

Hello! Purple names and a private club?

Randall wrote:If the moderators, and forum admins weren't so lacking in social skill and leadership skill, it would be unnecessary.

I have never shared your beliefs in this...

The CR initiative was a great idea.
I know how hard it is to contact a mod. It's not something I would want to do... It's not limited to here...

That is utter bullshit. What kind of a pissypants pansy is too scared to contact a mod?

Getting threads locked before they got outta hand. Getting people the help that they needed before they did something stupid.
Being the shoulder for countless people to cry on!

Don't make me laugh, you guys waited for daddy Valerion to lock Raven's thread after the mudslinging started.
Getting people help and being a shoulder to cry on doesn't require a noddy badge. You, Tocs, and I all did that before being CRs.

Leeward wrote:

Randall wrote:

Regardless of what you say, or your intentions, Tocs, the role of CR has never been about the greater community.
It's always been managing relations within the forum (mostly interpersonal disputes and helping new members settle in).

And about fighting the admins to get things done!

I never said that, but you're not wrong.

You never said that, that is my observation!

I have never shared your beliefs in this...

Compare your life experience to mine... you're what, just fresh out of high school. I am much older, and have had experience working under poor leadership for at least a decade. I have also got some qualifications in management, therefore I don't talk out my asshole like many do. I know what it takes to manage people, I know what it is like to run a community, and you're doing it wrong!

No. To find mutual ground. Fighting is what got is in this mess...
We are mediators. Not soldiers.

*shakes head*
You just don't get it do you!!!!!

I have a better idea. Let's make everyone CRs, since by the August 2016 criteria for CR selection, being online and active anywhere in the fandom now qualifies you. That way we won't argue about what it means to be a CR, and everyone gets to feel special.

Randall direct attacks are not appreciated in this discussion, I would like to ask for you to please relax and actually hear what I have to say before going on a rant about how naive I am or how you believe the admins have a lack of social skills. I don't understand where you get the understanding of that we are doing this for some type of power trip because it is indeed a selfless act which in fact barely any thanks is given to (and no, that isn't me complaining, that is a fact, and it is something I accepted ages ago, and I don't need the thanks because I know I am doing the right thing).

To answer Galahad, there will be debate or discussions outside the forums but I think that is a given and something we cannot control, however controversy, I don't believe there is any on our side

And to answer Leeward, the fact of the matter is that you phrased it in a way that is meant to imply completely different things, yes we did make a mistake (but I am about as human as you are, it does happen believe it or not) which is why we are rectifying it (which honestly any Tom, Dick and Harry can be able to see), but the very fact that you are trying to point out such a thing does give negative connotations to it instead of actually giving us a little bit of credit to the fact that we listened to what you guys had to say and have acted appropriately. With regards to what we have actually done I believe I can actually get a great deal of the community to speak on my behalf and say the impacts I have had (and also the fact that many people do in fact approach me with their problems, questions, concerns, etc, that I communicate towards to respected people in the community, be that the admins of this forum, leaders in the telegram group or people who are organising the convention).

To answer Sev, you are misunderstanding what I have to say here, the original intent of anything doesn't matter. It is what it's intention is now especially since how much the community is changed. Which is why I mention the word expanding.

And once again for Randalls final point, I don't believe anyone has had to "fight" anyone here, the reason why you and Lee may share that view is because you were trying to apply to something which you were simply not fit to do, or you were trying to change something which simply did not need to be changed, and people disagreed (and no, this doesn't only refer to the CRs and Admins just disagreeing, when I mean people, I mean a lot of the community).

To add on to Galahads example of the 2017 convention, we have been doing that and thank you for pointing that out, when it was the local podcast for the 2017 convention, the questions I have asked were not my own, but of people that could not make it to the podcast at the time, it is a small thing sure, but it is all these small things that can add up, and I know for a fact that some of these people wouldn't have approached me or anyone else about it if it weren't for the fact that they knew I was a CR (because they knew they could actually talk to me and ask said questions).

To answer Leewards point again, there have been actually many people that have been too scared to contact a mod (me being one of them at a time) purely because of the fact that they are moderators, and I am sorry but you are wrong if you think that everyone thinks like you with regards to how to approach people. And also what adagio did say was ultimately incorrect, we don't actually lock the forums ourselves because we do not have the power to lock the forums, but if you do notice as soon as it did get out of hand I did request for everyone to take a break from the things.

If this discussion deteriorates into sarcastic remarks and personal attacks, the risk of it being locked by staff will increase and our opportunity to discuss this rationally and politely will possibly be gone.