Badge as CR - VOTE

[Randall]

A question if I may
What is this fear of contacting a mod? Sorry it doesn't compute in my mind. How the hell can you be so scared of people online.

[Tocs]

It is because people are completely different to what you may think, and some people do not feel comfortable talking to moderators, leaders of groups, etc.

[Sev]

To answer Sev, you are misunderstanding what I have to say here, the original intent of anything doesn't matter. It is what it's intention is now especially since how much the community is changed. Which is why I mention the word expanding.

In that case, congratulations on completely appropriating the role.

Regardless of the outcome of this vote, the damage has already been done, and Badge's time as CR will forever be tainted, and his legitimacy called into question.
And the fact that the old guard have an equal weight in this as someone that created an account yesterday is pretty fucking shocking.

[Randall]

It is because people are completely different to what you may think, and some people do not feel comfortable talking to moderators, leaders of groups, etc.

If that is the case, how is this going to become possible:

* Applying for a job
* Asking for time off at work
* Asking to speak to the dean of the faculty
* Voting
* Applying for and doing a driver's licence test
* Standing up for what is right in this world
etc..

[Galahad]

A question if I may
What is this fear of contacting a mod? Sorry it doesn't compute in my mind. How the hell can you be so scared of people online.

If I may please take the liberty of answering your question (to my knowledge - if I am wrong, please, correct me):
It is more a matter of logistics than it is fear. If one has a community of, for argument's sake, 300 members with a staff of approximately 5 moderators and administrators, you could potentially have one staff member catering directly to the feedback of 60 members, which would be overwhelming. By appointing CRs, you now have additional mediators who can now address the concerns and listen to the feedback of the community more efficiently without the staff being over-burdened (just by adding three CRs, you now have a ratio of about 38 members to one staff member, almost halving the quotient.)

Of course, one could say, "but if we were all to contact CRs, you would now only have three channels, rather than the five you would have had if you could just address the admins and mods directly". Once CRs become "saturated", they can simply redirect further inquiries and feedback directly to the staff members, sharing the burden among the staff.

"But then why not just make them mods?" Because it would be unnecessary; it is the influx of feedback, not board moderation, that needs to be shared.

[Leeward]

It is because people are completely different to what you may think, and some people do not feel comfortable talking to moderators, leaders of groups, etc.

Honestly, someone who don't have the courage to click a button and write a message to some aetherial face on the internet needs serious help. A forum is not meant to cater to that in any way or form.

[Hargan]

I remember the day seeing Ivic as moderator for the general discussion and venting forums and thinking: That poor, poor sod. I do not want to be in his shoes. I've watched as the CR grew from merely moderation to attempts to bring people together. Camps, plans braais and so much more get planned (not always with CR's in charge) but none can argue that these haven't been done by CR's.

Yes, they won't represent everyone. Does the president of South Africa represent all your feelings when he speaks? No, but he is our representative of South Africa.

You don't have to agree, sure. Not everyone agrees. But if you're trying to impeach him before he's even begun work, then you're really not giving the guy a chance. Seriously, adults: I know emotions can be a hard thing to control. Believe me when I say this. But sometimes, you gotta let go, and give people a chance to show themselves. If he fucks up, then by all means, sure, have this hanging party. But give the guy a piece of slack to actually try.

I vote yes, because I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves.

Ane yes, I was this pissed off at Helen Zille when she attacked Zuma diurectly after elections, before the 100 days had happened. I mean, really. That was out of line. I dislike Zuma, sure, I don't like his management style nor think he should be president. But he deserved a chance to prove he was worthy. Now since he failed at that task, kick him out. He had his chance.

[Sev]

Except that we don't have anywhere close to 300 active members - 30 would even be a push.
And in my experience, interacting with Valerion over PM has been no more unpleasant that interacting with a CR, so none of this holds any water.

"I vote yes, because I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves."

The fact that you don't already believe that he has proven himself should raise some concerns.

[Tetsudra]

we communicate with other mods/group leaders of what the community may or may not like,

To answer Leewards point again, there have been actually many people that have been too scared to contact a mod (me being one of them at a time) purely because of the fact that they are moderators

So by your own criteria for being a CR (communicating with mods), you're basically saying that you're not qualified to be a CR, because you're scared of talking to a mod?

This is why I'm personally having trouble with this whole thing. You're trying to do a job that you yourself have admitted to not being able to do.

[WolfyDragon]

You guys seem to be bickering over this situation like its a massive title. The way I see it, the creators of this site, and their lenience in the ways they deal with this sort of thing speaks tonnes about why they are more apt at making such decisions.
If you had anything positive to add to this site and community then maybe you would be a CR, but again being one implies that you add positively. They work hard and try to do so with a positive attitude. So instead of being caustic, rather understand that you get what you work for. Rather try being positive and then you may actually add some helpful input here.

[Randall]

It is more a matter of logistics than it is fear. If one has a community of, for argument's sake, 300 members with a staff of approximately 5 moderators and administrators, you could potentially have one staff member catering directly to the feedback of 60 members, which would be overwhelming. By appointing CRs, you now have additional mediators who can now address the concerns and listen to the feedback of the community more efficiently without the staff being over-burdened

Nonsense!
Big forums like MyBroadband run with a handful of admins, that place has over a million posts and 500,000 members I believe. Yet a handful of mods are sufficient. By last count they only had 8.
You cannot compare their traffic to ours. This forum is like watching paint dry on a good day. Nothing happens here, apart from shitposting in the WAYDRN thread.

[Galahad]

Except that we don't have anywhere close to 300 active members - 30 would even be a push.
And in my experience, interacting with Valerion over PM has been no more unpleasant that interacting with a CR, so none of this holds any water.

Am I correct in assuming you are referring to the forum? In that case, I would agree with you that there are but about 30 members who are truly active on the forum. Yet, my earlier post demonstrated that the role of CRs as "mediators" extends to any offshoot of the community. Telegram groups, for example; and even the convention itself (see Toc's earlier post). Hence, the number of participants now enlarges to about 100, if not more. Additionally, if you assume the entire community is only 30-members strong, a group of 8 staff members (including CRs) now becomes even more potent and personal; it is only when the staff (including CRs) outnumbers the non-staff that it is woefully unnecessary.

As for your interaction with Valerion, I cannot offer a comment, as it is anecdotal.

[Leeward]

So by your own criteria for being a CR (communicating with mods), you're basically saying that you're not qualified to be a CR, because you're scared of talking to a mod?

This is why I'm personally having trouble with this whole thing. You're trying to do a job that you yourself have admitted to not being able to do.

I think you missed the "at a time" part, meaning he is no longer scared he might disturb the mods from babysitting everyone else under their charge.

[Tetsudra]

If you had anything positive to add to this site and community then maybe you would be a CR, but again being one implies that you add positively.

I don't know if anyone really wants to be a CR anymore. On the one hand, being added as a CR seems to be cause for massive drama, and on the other hand, CRs apparently have no real privileges to justify a separate title. Why go through all that stress, when you can just be a happy camper on Telegram without the drama?

[Franky]

Make me a CR. XD

Zafur in a week:



/kidding. Though i'll take a skip on the vote. I still don't really understand what the cr's do. I don't mind it but still don't understand why the special role.

[Randall]

Rather try being positive and then you may actually add some helpful input here.

I am positive. I am happy as a pig in shit to be a furry at the moment. I am excited about the future.
I am proud of my efforts, I think I do awesome stuff.

But don't expect me to be all giddy about the administration of this forum, who thinks they "know better than everyone else" despite proof to the contrary!

[Faanvolla]

A question if I may
What is this fear of contacting a mod? Sorry it doesn't compute in my mind. How the hell can you be so scared of people online.

When I joined way back in '12, this was the first ever 'internet forum' I was a part of, and in my mind the admins/moderators = teachers/school principal.
And those people I was taught all my life you are not allowed to just speak to all willy nilly. So I, for one, did my absolute best to try and not speak directly with or contradict an admin. Heck, even the members back then who I looked up to and respected I was a lot of times too afraid to even speak to though, so.

You also did mention how naive other people are, unlike you, having been on the internet forever and knowing all the ins and outs, so at the same time, the 14-16 year old joining the forum tomorrow, the one who's never really been a part of an online community, that person might not be so comfortable with speaking to authority right out the gate.

This isn't commentary on Badge being a CR or not, (and I've chosen not to vote cause Idk.) but Randall asked a question I felt I was exactly me

And the fact that the old guard have an equal weight in this as someone that created an account yesterday is pretty fucking shocking.

Welcome to democracy, where the 80 year old's vote is equal to the 19 year old's.
Also, since you're deleting your account, I'd've thought you'd care way less about the happenings on here tbh.

[Galahad]

Nonsense!
Big forums like MyBroadband run with a handful of admins, that place has over a million posts and 500,000 members I believe. Yet a handful of mods are sufficient. By last count they only had 8.
You cannot compare their traffic to ours. This forum is like watching paint dry on a good day. Nothing happens here, apart from shitposting in the WAYDRN thread.

I agree that their traffic is hopelessly larger than ours, as is their membership and virtually any quantifiable aspect of their community. However, the nature of the feedback is quite different; it is not business transactions, customer complaints, and so on that occur here - the furry community is more personal than that, as has been demonstrated time and time again on this forum. Compare the relationships between MyBroadBand forum users and ZA furry forum users. It involves conflict between users, suggestions and arrangements for meets, and so on.

Besides, the greater the ratio of staff to members, the more direct and effective it is (within certain boundaries, and assuming the staff are competent and elected), so it is not just a matter of numbers.

[Tocs]

To answer Sev, The fact that you think that it shouldn't be equal weight is shocking, doesn't matter how old or new you are to the community because every vote is equal. (In england when voting for a new party, one person has exactly the same amount of voting power as the Queen). It gives an accurate result. And I am sorry but I do not understand why you believe it is tainted when adagio and I admitted to making a mistake, and we are trying to rectify that by having this vote to see what the community has to say and want.

To answer Randall, yes believe it or not people are afraid of asking those very questions you posted.

To answer Tetsudra, please read more carefully because I said "me being one of them AT A TIME" that time has long past. I am perfectly capable and have proven myself to be fit for the role.

To Randall, again please conduct what you have to say in a more appropriate manner and refrain from attacks and/or saying something which is not entire true.

[Tetsudra]

I think you missed the "at a time" part, meaning he is no longer scared he might disturb the mods from babysitting everyone else under their charge.

True! And it's an interesting dynamic, being a representative of a community where at ANY time you felt unable to talk to the people in charge.

I mean last I checked, the duty of any administrator was to enable their communities to interact, and to empower those who showed great character and willingness to invest their time, with appropriate titles, badges and moderation capabilities. Being a successful administrator of anything is 100% about making sure the people in your charge have what they need to go about their lives - whether in business, community groups or fandoms like this one.

I'm honestly surprised we have a dynamic here where the CR "buffer" between the community and the admins is, at any point, scared to talk to the admins about the community. Especially since both admins are in the same community anyway. That sounds a lot more like disempowerment to me.

To answer Tetsudra, please read more carefully because I said "me being one of them AT A TIME" that time has long past. I am perfectly capable and have proven myself to be fit for the role.

Your candidacy is not up for discussion though. Badge's is, and so far I've seen nothing in any of these arguments that persuades me to include him as a CR on this forum.

[Sev]

Except that we don't have anywhere close to 300 active members - 30 would even be a push.
And in my experience, interacting with Valerion over PM has been no more unpleasant that interacting with a CR, so none of this holds any water.

Am I correct in assuming you are referring to the forum? In that case, I would agree with you that there are but about 30 members who are truly active on the forum. Yet, my earlier post demonstrated that the role of CRs as "mediators" extends to any offshoot of the community. Telegram groups, for example; and even the convention itself (see Toc's earlier post). Hence, the number of participants now enlarges to about 100, if not more. Additionally, if you assume the entire community is only 30-members strong, a group of 8 staff members (including CRs) now becomes even more potent and personal; it is only when the staff (including CRs) outnumbers the non-staff that it is woefully unnecessary.

As for your interaction with Valerion, I cannot offer a comment, as it is anecdotal.

In that case, if you really must, create an "ambassador of the community" or some such which has nothing to do with the forum.
It's really stupid to make someone who spends the vast majority of their interaction with the community outside of the forum a forum CR.

And, no, Tocs. Someone has has invested years in this forum should have far more weight that someone who just joined and might not even stick around a month, because they are far more informed, and have far more to lose.

[Hargan]

Sev: directly taking it out of context. Nice.

I stand by what I said: I'm giving him the benefit of the chance. I've not seen his work (I'm very distant in the community at times) so I'll let him show me what he can do through his actions. But once again, you'll take that out of context too. So note that I won't respond to out of context points again. You know what I mean.

[Leeward]

To answer Randall, yes believe it or not people are afraid of asking those very questions you posted.

Good luck to them in the real world then, lots of scary people to talk to out there.

[Randall]

And those people I was taught all my life you are not allowed to just speak to all willy nilly

You guys really need to get away from that mentality. Good gods.. what do they do to you in school these days? Is this now what they do now that they cannot lay stripes on your butt anymore?

You also did mention how naive other people are, unlike you, having been on the internet forever and knowing all the ins and outs, so at the same time, the 14-16 year old joining the forum tomorrow, the one who's never really been a part of an online community, that person might not be so comfortable with speaking to authority right out the gate.

As Edward Snowden put it, there was a time on the internet when everyone had an equal say, and kids could discuss, and debate points with adults and senior citizens. That is largely gone now, in part thanks to the Orwellian world we live in, but more often than not, its a split between the retards online and those that are bullies. And it makes no difference, so what if I've been online since 1996, the internet is NO SUBSTITUTE for going out there and learning social skills.

I am now walking away from this debate because I am tired of arguing my valid points across.

[Galahad]

In that case, if you really must, create an "ambassador of the community" or some such which has nothing to do with the forum.
It's really stupid to make someone who spends the vast majority of their interaction with the community outside of the forum a forum CR.

On what basis are CRs chosen, or, in the case of Badge, elected? Generally, on their reputation in the forum (and community as a whole), their ability to handle issues, and their social and moral standing.

Hence, assuming ideal conditions, a person who is elected as a CR has "passed the test". Would it not thus be simpler and more reasonable to extend such a tried-and-tested person's duties to encompass those outside the forum (a role which is almost identical to the one he or she was playing on the forum itself), than start from scratch and find a person to be elected as "ambassador"?

[Sev]

The first time that this seriously came up, the best candidates were selected from each province.
All of these candidates were active members.
From that, the admins ended up choosing.

[Galahad]

The first time that this seriously came up, the best candidates were selected from each province.
All of these candidates were active members.
From that, the admins ended up choosing.

Indeed. Hence, that is why I say such candidates went through a "refinement" or, perhaps more aptly, as "selection" process: a test. Again, assuming ideal conditions, CRs are tried and proven - you cannot (or should not) just become one because you feel like it. They are elected or chosen by the people they wish to represent as well as the people to whom they will be reporting.

Why, then, create an entirely new role, than simply extend the role of someone whose work is closely related, has the trust of the community, and has the ideal disposition for it?

[Leeward]

Honestly, what I am completely baffled by is why you care so much. You can do the CR thing all you want without being a CR, it doesn't warrant a fancy position. By all means, reach out to those too timid to approach management, but it's not your or the forum's responsibility to cater to their sensitivities. People like that will not cope with real life, and they need help. Real professional help: i.e. not the kind some unqualified gentle soul can provide.

[Franky]

Reminds me of a discussion myself and another furry had recently that said he messaged a fur that became hysterical cause he is apparently a popufur in the eyes of the dude he messaged.

O.o

Seriously guys. Sprekin your voice to whoever. Shit, talking to Uncle Kage was probably the most relaxed podcast I ever did. People are just people like you. No need to idolise.

[Tocs]

To answer Tetsudra, the fact that I was scared had nothing to do with what the admins did at the time or how they conducted themselves, it was more of a personal thing that I felt I, me, myself was scared, for various reasons which I am not going to mention here. And for your last point, that is your opinion, hence the fact that you are allowed to vote, and the fact that everyone else is allowed to vote so we can see opinions.

To answer Sev, no again you are wrong because you are actually belittling other members to a lower standard than you when they do in fact have an equal say in the matter and that is not up for discussion anymore, that is final.

To answer Lee and Randall, the fact is that you are not willing to accept the fact that other people think completely different to you, and have various ways of dealing and coping with situation. And the fact of the matter is that these are not valid points at all, because you are dismissing what is a FACT that some people do feel in the community for a large variety of reasons (such as Faans) and it is most of the time, very personal reasons, do understand that people think differently to you.