Chimera Organs.
- Helios_phi
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Chimera Organs.
So I haven't seen anything on here ever about the old moral hot potato that is chimera grown organs.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7631877/ns/nb ... ise-sheep/
I'm a pretty morally perverse person, but this is something that horrifies even me.
Just how much of the animals affected brain is also human tissue.
I've seen too much full metal alchemist.
Seriously thou.
Why isn't this in more media focus?
The news has all the time in the world to make furries look like perverts, but we have scientists out there playing fucking island of Dr Moreau for real and it's as if no one gives a shit.
Yea, the human race is not a pretty one.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7631877/ns/nb ... ise-sheep/
I'm a pretty morally perverse person, but this is something that horrifies even me.
Just how much of the animals affected brain is also human tissue.
I've seen too much full metal alchemist.
Seriously thou.
Why isn't this in more media focus?
The news has all the time in the world to make furries look like perverts, but we have scientists out there playing fucking island of Dr Moreau for real and it's as if no one gives a shit.
Yea, the human race is not a pretty one.
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I'm bracing myself for criticism for this, but I actually don't see much wrong here.
Chimeras technically also occur in nature, although not across species. A chimera is not the same thing as a genetically modified organism: it only hosts dispersed cells that are 100% human, rather than have human genes in every cell. That sounds much more like midi-chlorians than FMA's chimeras to me. If the "midi-chlorians" can help a human accept a sheep liver, I don't see why not. The sheep isn't going to start thinking/feeling human-like thoughts/feelings, it's more like a parasite or symbiote than actual human parts.
Chimeras technically also occur in nature, although not across species. A chimera is not the same thing as a genetically modified organism: it only hosts dispersed cells that are 100% human, rather than have human genes in every cell. That sounds much more like midi-chlorians than FMA's chimeras to me. If the "midi-chlorians" can help a human accept a sheep liver, I don't see why not. The sheep isn't going to start thinking/feeling human-like thoughts/feelings, it's more like a parasite or symbiote than actual human parts.
- Contrast
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Re: Chimera Organs.
This reminds me a bit of the Vacanti mouse. They used cow cartilage cells to grow a human-shaped ear on its back.
If it can save lives, and it doesn't harm the animals, then I don't really see a problem with it either.
If it can save lives, and it doesn't harm the animals, then I don't really see a problem with it either.
- Helios_phi
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I think most of the argument in these cases tends toward how much dominion humans should have over animals. Remember that if you love animals and support this, you should be fully prepaired to one day have your son or daughters embryos injected with pig DNA.... and be okay with it growing inside you.
Cause you know.... shoe on the other foot.
What kind of moral dilemma would that raise?
Cause you know.... shoe on the other foot.
What kind of moral dilemma would that raise?
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- Sev
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Re: Chimera Organs.
Ethics should not come into things that could save human lives, especially not when crop animals are concerned.
Re: Chimera Organs.
My counterpoint is, are these animals aware that they have bits of human in them? Apart from that mouse ("WTF is that thing on my back!?") I don't think they would know the difference, especially if they can't understand the concept.
However, ethics most definitely should be concerned. Life has value regardless of whether it is human or not, and undue suffering is unethical. My point is there is no (or at most very little) suffering here.
However, ethics most definitely should be concerned. Life has value regardless of whether it is human or not, and undue suffering is unethical. My point is there is no (or at most very little) suffering here.
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I'll start getting concerned when the sheep starts looking like this:
- Rakuen Growlithe
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I can't find the link but I read something on how many people are opposed to animal experiments. If you word the question a certain way and if you mention medicine they are far less opposed.Helios_phi wrote:Why isn't this in more media focus?
Of course it should because people lose all perspective in their fear of death. Situations involving human lives are very important in helping ethical thinking. I.e. Is it right to kill a person who will die in the next week anyway for organs that would save four others who won't last a week?Sev wrote:Ethics should not come into things that could save human lives, especially not when crop animals are concerned.
It will harm the animals. They will be killed.Contrast wrote:If it can save lives, and it doesn't harm the animals, then I don't really see a problem with it either.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
~John Stuart Mill~
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
Re: Chimera Organs.
+9000Rakuen Growlithe wrote:people lose all perspective in their fear of death.
That is no more harmful than killing them for meat, which is done routinely without a second thought.Rakuen Growlithe wrote:It will harm the animals. They will be killed.Contrast wrote:If it can save lives, and it doesn't harm the animals, then I don't really see a problem with it either.
- Helios_phi
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Re: Chimera Organs.
Na, at least you could still tap dat.Accretion wrote:I'll start getting concerned when the sheep starts looking like this:
I think for me personally, I see animals as creatures. Eating them, that's fine.
Using them as some sort of breathing, incubating meat sack injected with your DNA incase you screw your own organs up.
Well that's just a perversion of science.
It's all a bit to do with man's inability to accept the finality of death.
Hell, I don't even donate blood. I look after mine. If I screw up and end up loosing my blood on a pavement somewhere. Well that's my business and I don't expect mercy from anyone.
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- Rakuen Growlithe
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I thought about it and decided against it.Leeward wrote:That is no more harmful than killing them for meat, which is done routinely without a second thought.
Though if you do the same thing to a dog that one does to a cow or a pig, you'd get charged with animal cruelty. It's not that one is ethically different to the other, it's just the people making the laws, and the masses that could protest, don't enjoy eating dogs.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
~John Stuart Mill~
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
- Contrast
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I know that, but millions of sheep, pigs, and cows get slaughtered every day just for their meat. Adding transplant organs to the list of products they provide won't make much of a difference to the animals in question, but will save thousands of human lives.Rakuen Growlithe wrote:It will harm the animals. They will be killed.
When I said "harm" I was referring to the animal actually living as a chimera, not its eventual slaughter (almost all livestock end up getting slaughtered anyway, whether they're chimeras or not). If chimeras suffer because of all the human parts growing inside of them, then it would be terribly inhumane. If it doesn't bother them, however, then I don't see the harm.
Edit: I see that this particular branch of the discussion seems to have been resolved, but I'd like to add a little more. If anybody's interested in the automated way the food industry has developed over the last few years, emphasizing profit and efficiency above all else, you should watch the documentary "Food, Inc". Just be warned, it gets quite disturbing, and might end up turning you into a vegetarian (it certainly disturbed me). Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oq24hITFTYRakuen Growlithe wrote:I thought about it and decided against it.Leeward wrote:That is no more harmful than killing them for meat, which is done routinely without a second thought.
Though if you do the same thing to a dog that one does to a cow or a pig, you'd get charged with animal cruelty. It's not that one is ethically different to the other, it's just the people making the laws, and the masses that could protest, don't enjoy eating dogs.
It might not have anything to do with chimeras, but it does take an in-depth look at the ethical treatment of animals.
- Helios_phi
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Re: Chimera Organs.
They don't know what they're missing.Rakuen Growlithe wrote:-sic- the masses don't enjoy eating dogs.
I've eaten dog, cat, horse, zebra, crocodile, giraffe, hippo, and then some.
Of course I didn't intentionally eat the dog or cat. Can't say they were unpleasant thou.
Eating giraffe kinda made me sad cause I really love them so much as animals. (I just think they're super cool) and it was incredibly tasty.
But back on track.
I don't think this is still ethically correct to create chimera animals.
If they could somehow ensure that the animal don't grow human cells in their brains, I think I would be more okay with this.
If DNA tests taken on these organs have the same positive signature as human organs (which they do) Then the brain DNA will be human DNA too. Can we prove they don't have higher sentience and we're maybe imprisoning higher consciousness in the unwilling cage that is the body of a sheep?
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- Sev
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Re: Chimera Organs.
Until there is scientific evidence to support that...
- Contrast
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I don't think it would work that way. At most, you might end up with an intelligent sheep, and even so, I doubt it would consider its own body a "prison" any more than you do your own. We're not talking about taking human consciousness and "transplanting" it (forgive me if I misunderstood you). We're talking about an animal being born and growing with a percentage of human cells mixed in. That doesn't make it two different entities.Helios_phi wrote:Can we prove they don't have higher sentience and we're maybe imprisoning higher consciousness in the unwilling cage that is the body of a sheep?
Re: Chimera Organs.
If the mind were to become some sort of sheep-human amalgam, don't you think the body would too? It doesn't make sense to assume that something that looks like a sheep but has human cells in it can think like a human, it doesn't work that way.
- Helios_phi
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Re: Chimera Organs.
No, Contrast and Leeward are right, it probably wouldn't and doesn't work that way. I'm just throwing out discussion points here.
My mind is undecided on the issue so hearing all sides of things is how I formulate opinions
(That was a pretty limp one)
Right now I'm still leaning toward no for the same reason.
It's all good and well that we inject human genes and DNA into a sheep or pig.
Humanity would freak the fuck out if one day a scientist decided to do it the other way round and inject pig DNA into a human embryo.
We have so many better uses for genetics.
Cloning rhinos for a start.
My mind is undecided on the issue so hearing all sides of things is how I formulate opinions
(That was a pretty limp one)
Right now I'm still leaning toward no for the same reason.
It's all good and well that we inject human genes and DNA into a sheep or pig.
Humanity would freak the fuck out if one day a scientist decided to do it the other way round and inject pig DNA into a human embryo.
We have so many better uses for genetics.
Cloning rhinos for a start.
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I don't know, I wouldn't mind having a pig's amazing sense of smell, or jellyfish DNA that makes me glow in the dark. :3Helios_phi wrote:Humanity would freak the fuck out if one day a scientist decided to do it the other way round and inject pig DNA into a human embryo.
- Sev
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Re: Chimera Organs.
The only thing more obnoxious than a cow is a glow in the dark cow.
- Contrast
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Re: Chimera Organs.
I don't know about cows, but glow in the dark pigs are definitely a thing. I believe they used jellyfish DNA.
Re: Chimera Organs.
OMAIGAWD those are so cute!!! Little glowy hooves and snouts OMW this is just too adorable! *squeals and fawns* *faints*
- Sev
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Re: Chimera Organs.
The one in the center is an abomination!
- Rakuen Growlithe
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Re: Chimera Organs.
You can see more glowing animals here: http://forum.zafur.co.za/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=361 And a little discussion (more jokes) about them.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
~John Stuart Mill~
“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
~John Milton~
Re: Chimera Organs.
Nenenenenecro!
Seriously, I’m slightly disappointed helios.
Not sure exactly how they do it in the procedure in question, but the aspects of the human brain that makes it unquestionably human would not be expressed from altering a pigs liver with human genes. If you integrate the HAR1 gene in to a pig then yea, you might get a pig demanding voting rights or some weird stuff… but I doubt people have the kind of revolutionary vision needed to be doing that.
As for the animal rights thing… I spend more time with animals than I do with humans so I know they are not the stupid ambulatory meat bags humans seem to think they are. If you are going to use the intelligence or brain region argument then I suppose it’s OK to eat a 3 year old child too right? I think as humans we tend to think of animals as inferior because that makes us feel less guilty for being the savage carnivores we are when we butcher them, eat their babies and keep them locked up in concentration camps.
Lol, don’t get me wrong, I’m no hippy/vegetarian. I eat meat and enjoy it but I don’t lie to myself and call myself superior just because I can’t see the face of the animal who I’m robbing of its hopes, dreams and aspirations.
If you’re willing to sacrifice a living creature against its will just because you like steak, why not do the same thing for a life saving human rat ear?
Seriously, I’m slightly disappointed helios.
Not sure exactly how they do it in the procedure in question, but the aspects of the human brain that makes it unquestionably human would not be expressed from altering a pigs liver with human genes. If you integrate the HAR1 gene in to a pig then yea, you might get a pig demanding voting rights or some weird stuff… but I doubt people have the kind of revolutionary vision needed to be doing that.
As for the animal rights thing… I spend more time with animals than I do with humans so I know they are not the stupid ambulatory meat bags humans seem to think they are. If you are going to use the intelligence or brain region argument then I suppose it’s OK to eat a 3 year old child too right? I think as humans we tend to think of animals as inferior because that makes us feel less guilty for being the savage carnivores we are when we butcher them, eat their babies and keep them locked up in concentration camps.
Lol, don’t get me wrong, I’m no hippy/vegetarian. I eat meat and enjoy it but I don’t lie to myself and call myself superior just because I can’t see the face of the animal who I’m robbing of its hopes, dreams and aspirations.
If you’re willing to sacrifice a living creature against its will just because you like steak, why not do the same thing for a life saving human rat ear?
Hehe, you may hate me, but you’ll be thanking me when I make hot furry girls one day.Helios_phi wrote:
we have scientists out there playing fucking island of Dr Moreau for real and it's as if no one gives a shit.
Yea, the human race is not a pretty one.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
- Helios_phi
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Re: Chimera Organs.
Umm, we've had this discussion somewhere else on here too. Art is cool, but realistically we're mostly just a bunch of r34philes. An actual realistically hairy furry is about as appealing as sleeping with chewbacca
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Re: Chimera Organs.
Actually animal Organ transplants will be a think of the past in years to come. Science is making some major breakthroughs and they will only get better as time goes on.
http://www.mysuncoast.com/health/news/g ... f6878.html
As for the killing animals for meat, oh well its the circle of life and unfortunately for the animals humans are at the top of the food chain. But I do feel it is ethically immoral to pump animals with hormones and other shit just to get them to grow faster for the slaughter. I prefer free range products as they are healthier too.
http://www.mysuncoast.com/health/news/g ... f6878.html
As for the killing animals for meat, oh well its the circle of life and unfortunately for the animals humans are at the top of the food chain. But I do feel it is ethically immoral to pump animals with hormones and other shit just to get them to grow faster for the slaughter. I prefer free range products as they are healthier too.
The circumstances of your birth are irrelevant, It's what you do with the gift of life that matters.
Re: Chimera Organs.
but its sooo fluffeh! lol, not much love for this concept on here i guess. but still guy, i'm sure you wouldn’t mind having am actual tail? they are so handy in general and useful when swimming. also did i mention they are SO DAMN FLUHFEH?Helios_phi wrote:Umm, we've had this discussion somewhere else on here too. Art is cool, but realistically we're mostly just a bunch of r34philes. An actual realistically hairy furry is about as appealing as sleeping with chewbacca
i know rite, people just seem too lazy to make artificial growth medium.Titanreaper wrote:Actually animal Organ transplants will be a think of the past in years to come. Science is making some major breakthroughs and they will only get better as time goes on.
http://www.mysuncoast.com/health/news/g ... f6878.html
As for the killing animals for meat, oh well its the circle of life and unfortunately for the animals humans are at the top of the food chain. But I do feel it is ethically immoral to pump animals with hormones and other shit just to get them to grow faster for the slaughter. I prefer free range products as they are healthier too.
and as for killing animals... i dono man i'm not trying to advocate anything here i just don’t get why people would have an issue with some minor stuff like hormones while at the same time we do the worst possible things to animals already without really caring? makes no sense to me.
lol, also look out for those "chemicals" in the food hey.
Duck face? i thought they were all just making fart noises when posing for pictures...
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Re: Chimera Organs.
well if you look at chicken that get fed growth hormones are like 3 months old, fat as hell and look fully grown then they get slaughtered. have you ever noticed how much fat chicken seems to have compared to chicken from like 10 years ago? I'm just saying its not healthy. you are what you eat.Animew wrote:but its sooo fluffeh! lol, not much love for this concept on here i guess. but still guy, i'm sure you wouldn’t mind having am actual tail? they are so handy in general and useful when swimming. also did i mention they are SO DAMN FLUHFEH?Helios_phi wrote:Umm, we've had this discussion somewhere else on here too. Art is cool, but realistically we're mostly just a bunch of r34philes. An actual realistically hairy furry is about as appealing as sleeping with chewbacca
i know rite, people just seem too lazy to make artificial growth medium.Titanreaper wrote:Actually animal Organ transplants will be a think of the past in years to come. Science is making some major breakthroughs and they will only get better as time goes on.
http://www.mysuncoast.com/health/news/g ... f6878.html
As for the killing animals for meat, oh well its the circle of life and unfortunately for the animals humans are at the top of the food chain. But I do feel it is ethically immoral to pump animals with hormones and other shit just to get them to grow faster for the slaughter. I prefer free range products as they are healthier too.
and as for killing animals... i dono man i'm not trying to advocate anything here i just don’t get why people would have an issue with some minor stuff like hormones while at the same time we do the worst possible things to animals already without really caring? makes no sense to me.
lol, also look out for those "chemicals" in the food hey.
The circumstances of your birth are irrelevant, It's what you do with the gift of life that matters.
- Contrast
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Re: Chimera Organs.
OMG I'M A GHOST POP!!! D:Titanreaper wrote:You are what you eat.
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Re: Chimera Organs.
NO WAY!!!! GHOST POPS!!! haven't seen those in ages xD
The circumstances of your birth are irrelevant, It's what you do with the gift of life that matters.